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University of California Berkeley 

Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 

University History Series 


BERKELEY, 1919-1982 

Interviews with 

Josephine Smith Elizabeth Scott 

Margaret Murdock Marian Diamond 

Agnes Robb Mary Ann Johnson 

May Dornin Eleanor Van Horn 

Josephine Miles Katherine Van Valer Williams 
Gudveig Gordon-Britland 

With an Introduction by 
Helene Maxwell Brewer 

Interviews Conducted by 
Suzanne B. Riess 
1981, 1982 

Copyright (c) 1983 by The Regents of the University of California 

This manuscript is made available for research 
purposes. No part of the manuscript may be quoted 
for publication without the written permission of 
the Director of The Bancroft Library of the University 
of California at Berkeley. 

Requests for permission to quote for publication 
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History 
Office, 486 Library, and should include identification 
of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated 
use of the passages, and identification of the user. 

It is recommended that this oral history be cited 
as follows : 

To cite the volume: The Women's Faculty Club of 
the University of California, Berkeley, 1919-1982, 
an oral history series conducted 1981-1982, 
Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, 
University of California, Berkeley, 1983. 

To cite individual interview: Josephine Smith, 
"An Interview with Josephine Smith," an oral 
history conducted in 1981 by Suzanne B. Riess, 
in The Women's Faculty Club of the University of 
California, Berkeley, 1919-1982, Regional Oral 
History Office, The Bancroft Library, University 
of California, Berkeley, 1983. 

Copy No . 


Entrance to the Women's Faculty Club 
















INDEX 304 


The first time I entered the Women's Faculty Club was in 1924, when my 
mother and I came up from San Mateo for lunch with Professor Charles G. 
Osgood of Princeton. To my sixteen-year-old eyes the club rested on clouds 
of glory. My knowledge of architectural style was nonexistent, but if 
pressed for details I would have sworn that it surpassed the Parthenon. 
Actually I remember nothing but the dining room, which seemed to me 
marvelously and suitably beautiful, all dark panels and white walls and 
darker gleaming floors, with chairs and tables stretching into the undefined 
distance. The food was incomparable, the waitresses exquisite as they 
floated to the tables, the clatter of dishes symphonically exalting. This 
was Parnassus. 

About thirty-two years later I returned to Berkeley, this time to 
read in The Bancroft Library. I can't remember where I stayed that summer. 
I do remember that I was miserably uncomfortable and that The Bancroft's 
Julia Macleod, whom I had known years before at the Huntington Library, 
recognized the external signs of my discomfort and said, "Why don't you 
go over to the WFC and ask Margaret Murdock if there's a room available?" 
I did not, because my sixteen-year-old' s perception of the club was still 
strong and I was overcome by an attack of quintessential unworthiness. 

When I arrived the next summer, Julia telephoned Margaret Murdock 
directly, and there was indeed room. Miss Murdock welcomed me, and assured 
me I was not unbearably intrusive, and not committing a heinous crime by 
planning to stay for all of three months. She furthermore pointed out 
that I had been given a most desirable room, with a connecting bath and 
a view of the club's garden, and that I had an extra large closet. 

Thus began for me an unbroken and most happy sequence of summer visits, 
always as long as I could stretch my vacation from teaching American 
literature at Queens College. Several years later one of the permanent 
residents said to me, "There are two sure signs of summer here: first 
the swallovs arrive at Capistrano, and then you come in from New York." 
For me, to eat and sleep at the club, and to read in The Bancroft Library, 
constituted the ideal life. 

My impression of the Women's Faculty Club in 1957 was, first, of all 
kinds of trees, and of flowers, especially roses and heliotrope. Two 
Chinese magnolias arched over the stairs, as they do today. A bit of bygone 
bliss was the large parking lot across the way, in one corner of which 
grew a beautiful Roman pine. Parking permits were unheard of. 


Crossing the threshhold, in the office downstairs sat Miss Murdock 
and Mrs. Gudveig Gordon-Britland. Margaret Murdock seemed to know almost 
every man, woman, or child who stepped into the place, and she had a compre 
hensive knowledge of their illnesses and other vital statistics. She and 
Mrs. Gordon-Britland officiated. 

There was no elevator, nor was there a ramp for those who could not, 
or preferred not to use the stairs. The powder room for women guests was 
on the second floor, not conveniently on the ground floor as it is today. 
The west end of the basement was roughly-finished, something like a large 
cave, a poorly-lighted storage place for miscellaneous objects chests 
of drawers, suitcases, trunks, pictures, furniture that members didn't 
want, and dim bundles of cherished newspapers and magazines from years 

In those days the club was decorated in a style called "Old Berkeley," 
which, depending on the eye of the beholder, either meant something 
pejorative "dark and dingy," to quote a visiting nun from Chicago or, 
to many like me, meant weathered, old-fashioned charm, in some ways out 
of date, but exactly what was needed. The lounge and library were furnished 
with some of the treasures that now help to make these rooms outstanding, 
but then hardly affected the distinctly more bland general effect of that 

The acoustics of the club were extraordinary. No carpets covered 
.the halls or stairways. If one ascended in the usual fashion one clattered 
on each step. My first afternoon, as I was going upstairs with my suitcase, 
someone leaned over the second story railing and shouted, "Less noise! 
Do you want to ruin those stairs?" To tiptoe was no better; the stairs 
responded with mighty creaks. Worst of all, occupants of the second story 
rooms could hear every footstep, soft or loud, in the room overhead, and 
all too clear were the casual conversations or the typing of one's 
neighbors to the left or the right. 

Nowadays each room in the Women's Faculty Club has its own shower 
and toilet, but in those days most of the rooms "shared" bathrooms, and 
on the basis of how cooperative one's bathmate proved to be, lifelong 
friendships or outspoken animosities resulted. 

A wall telephone was located at the end of the hall. Buzzers in each 
room summoned one to the telephone, or announced the visitor. Here again 
the splendid acoustics came into play. if a call came after nine o'clock, 
one knew one was waking the sleeping on that floor, and then some. There 
was no doubt that every word could be overheard. More than once occupants 
have been questioned at breakfast about the details of a call that had 
come in at 9:30 or 10 the previous evening. 


However, private telephones could be installed. The summer I got 
one, the installer in some way also crossed the wires of Dean Davidson's 
phone with those of a local liquor store. The mishap happened on a Friday 
and the correction could not be made until the following Monday. Mrs. 
Davidson was reportedly nearly out of her wits disclaiming her ability 
to supply the desired brands of gin and scotch to her callers. 

In the late fifties the dining room looked very much as it had looked 
in 1924, the dark tables and chairs, the dark floor. Over near a sunny 
window stood the Dean's Table, described in several of the interviews here. 
At a discreet distance was the Family Table, where the "Regulars" sat. 
When I first went to the club the newcomers sat at one end, and the old 
guard at the other, but before the summer was over we were somewhat amalga 
mated. It was quickly apparent that Rule //I at dinner time was that no 
one was to sit in May Dornin's chair the last chair on the left as one 
looked toward the entrance. This seemingly rigid rule was based on the 
practicalities of Miss Dornin's lef t-handedness. 

Unwritten Rule #2 was that no one, save a permanent member, was to 
cut any of the roses. This was because Lucille Czarnowski, a former member 
of the Physical Education Department, regularly arranged the flowers, and 
no one but she cut the flowers. (One of her accomplished arrangements 
can be seen in a photograph in the Treasure Book on display in the library 
of the club.)* One summer an innocent newcomer did cut a rose that looked 
the model for a Jackson and Perkins advertisement. A number of us held 
our breaths until dinnertime when we could learn how that transgressor 
had survived. (She did.) 

The second and third floor kitchenettes each contained rather unsatis 
factory refrigerators, not really adequate for storage purposes of any 
amount, with the result that members' jars of juices, yogurts, stashes 
of cheese and apples, were inevitably jostled around. Unenforceable 
unwritten Rule #3 dictated that members' comestibles be clearly kept 
distinct from each other! 

The club manager in those years was Mrs. Lucille Phipps, and liquor in 
the club was frowned upon. I am under the impression that it was actively 
discouraged at the Family Table, except on special occasions, but non 
residents sometimes brought bottles to their tables. When that happened 
the waitress rushed for wine glasses and Mrs. Phipps darted forward, 

*Treasures of the Women's Faculty Club of the University of California, 
Berkeley, compiled in 1971 in memory of Mary Frances Patterson, organizer 
and chairman of the Department of Household Art, UC 1914-1949. 


corkscrew outstretched. Once a friend and I had guests and wine and 
in the flurry I leaned back and asked Mrs. Phipps if I couldn't save trouble 
by turning things over to the friendly student-waitress. "No! No!" she 
replied. "My girls may not even touch a corkscrew, and never a bottle!" 

Although I may seem to stress eccentric behavior, eccentricities did 
not dominate the club. It was quite simply a charming place. I have read 
in numerous university collections in the United States, as well as in 
the National Archives and the Library of Congress, and my pleasantest and 
most congenial summers were spent at the Women's Faculty Club at Berkeley. 
I have stayed in dorms, hotels, special clubs, and faculty clubs, but I 
have never stayed in a place where, all in all, there was such general 
friendliness among a highly diverse and professionally preoccupied group 
of women. 

Mrs. Alfred McLaughlin, who regularly came over from San Francisco 
for six weeks every summer to "refresh" herself, used to say, "It's the 
community of spirit that helps do it, and the variety of those interesting 
women." Several of the permanent residents told me that the regular 
academic year was a more interesting time "more prima donnas" but I recall 
anthropologists, biologists, chemists, geneticists, historians, nutrition 
ists, librarians, social workers, students of linguistics, a charming expert 
on urban renewal, a young woman who eventually got a black belt in judo 
and who reclaimed the nearly extinct Miwok language, graduate students, 
high school teachers taking refresher courses, and visiting faculty and 
researchers from France, Germany, Italy, England, Japan, and Russia. 
Undoubtedly there were others, like the young Persian who spoke very little 
English but said grandly, "I do not need English. Mathematics is the 
universal language." Specialists and interested non-specialists met on 
a common footing and exchanged ideas. 

One could go any place alone then. Members enjoyed the walk from 
the Durant Hotel bus stop up the treelined path to the club. I remember 
a saunter across the campus at midnight, stopping to look at the moonlit 
Library and Campanile as well as the shadows in Faculty Glade. 

The atmosphpre in the club began to change in the early sixties. Some 
of the pleasantest of the Regulars left the club for retirement homes. 
It became clear to members who had long believed that they would spend 
the rest of their lives in the quiet security of this place that they now 
faced the unsettling fact that they would have to move elsewhere within 
a few years. Other residents moved from Berkeley for academic reasons. 
Others became ill and ailing and often didn't come to lunch or dinner. 

The student revolution was sweeping this campus, and it exacerbated 
the emerging temperamental differences between older and younger residents. 
Two examples will illustrate. One evening at dinner we had to listen to 
a rancorous denunciation of long hair as worn by men: improper, effeminate, 

antisocial, and a great deal more. A summer visitor tried to defend this 
manifestation of delinquency and degradation. The table rocked with argument 
and the unfortunate defender was in partial limbo for the rest of the week. 
Another target was the Beatles. Although they had been around for at least 
seven years, the Beatles suddenly became representative of the decline 
in American morals. Name any regrettable development of the early 1960s, 
and a Beatle could probably be found at the bottom of it unless it was 
the alleged weaknesses of the university administration, another subject 
that resulted in monologues of denunciation from several of the Regulars 
while we summer people sat with eyes glazed. 

At various times efforts were made to improve the physical ambience. 
A major undertaking was the remodeling of the dining room in 1967. When 
the new dining room was opened the reactions were predictably at odds. 
Some of the members were delighted, and confessed they had long thought 
the room cheerless; others thought the change unnecessary, some of the 
long-time members describing themselves as heartbroken. Indeed, in 1975 
when at last the halls and stairs were laid with carpets, red, one of the 
longtime residents announced that she would never set foot in the club 

As the student revolution of the sixties progressed, it seemed to 
me that the resident members of the club became newly aware of their own 
vulnerability and clearly increasingly fearful for their safety and the 
safety of the building. In the first years of my stay there it was really 
a place set apart, hidden in trees and so private that unaware people were 
often surprised to see it. But now strangers, not remotely academic, 
seemed to be sleeping in the side garden. Sometimes we could look out 
and see unauthorized "picnics" (for want of a better word) . There were 
persistent rumors of how unsafe the groves of trees along Strawberry Creek 
had become. A friend told me that as she was coming through Faculty Glade 
at noon someone tried to snatch her purse. 

The fear of fire became obsessive with some of the permanent residents, 
and with good reason there were no overhead sprinklers and no fire sheathing 
in the building. Fire laws decreed that the windows at the end of the 
halls on the second and third floor should be closed at night. However 
these windows opened on fire escapes, and some of the Regulars feared that 
intruders would come up this way. On hot nights summer visitors' insistence 
on opening windows caused distress to several of the permanent residents. 

Signs on every floor warned residents not to go out by themselves 
at night, but if possible to go in groups of three. One of the members 
said to me, "I guess we keep the line to the Campus Police pretty busy." 
No more midnight strolls across the campus for any of us. 


As a summer visitor, I could not know all the inner details of what 
went on. In addition, between August 1966 and September 1974 I spent a 
considerable amount of time in Japan, so my visits, when they happened, 
were brief, but it became increasingly apparent that physically the club 
was deteriorating badly, that mere patchwork would not help, and that the 
treasury could not possibly cover the cost of needed rehabilitation. 

As the physical condition of the club went downhill, unnerving rumors 
about imminent dissolution, demolition, or coopting the building grew. 
Word reached me in Tokyo that the School of Optometry wanted the space 
occupied by the club for parking places. (The club had already lost its 
capacious parking place because an addition to Optometry was to be built.) 
Where roses, heliotrope, lemon verbena, and Chinese magnolias had flourished 
was now to be a large asphalt parking area next to the "woodpile" that 
had been the club. If not that, then we might as well all start looking 
for boarding houses, because the History Department was surely going to 
convert the place into carrels. Also the Women's Center caused consternation 
"The kiddies have taken over the second floor," I learned by letter. 

Even before 1966, the rumors included a proposed merger with The 
[Men's] Faculty Club. One board member said to me, "This place is a 
tinderbox. If it hasn't already been condemned as uninhabitable, it soon 
will be. The club can't meet the required budget. We should seriously 
talk about a merger with the men." Of course the division of opinion on 
this matter was extraordinary, and passionate. 

Efforts to raise funds to meet the budget were inadequate. A distin 
guished summer resident of many years, stressing that she had long 
contributed to the university, said, "If they can't afford to run the club, 
and if the university won't help, the club shouldn't keep up this struggle 
to exist. But what a tragedy for the dream of Lucy Stebbins." The old 
argument was heard that the Women's Faculty Club was no longer a club for 
women faculty. Their absence from the list of club members was ludicrously 
conspicuous. "Why don't more of them join?" Predictably, the board was 

The prospect of demolition, of having nothing where this true haven 
had stood for so many years, filled one with a feeling of helplessness 
and dismay. The sense of desolation was underscored when for financial 
reasons the club could not meet the union demand for wages in the kitchen 
the club stopped serving dinners in 1971 and the residents, like waifs, 
went to the men's club where they were shunted to a side porch. Or they 
ate at a nearby beanery, or they chose to heat soup in an upstairs 

The interviews and the appended documents report the worries and the 
struggles over the issue of merger, an issue that took ten years to resolve 
fully. Many of the interviewees refer to Peg Uridge. In 1973 Margaret 
Uridge was elected president of the club, and showed by personal example 


that that job falls just short of being a 24-hour assignment. Some said, 
"Oh, Peg has just retired, and the presidency is a godsend for her," but 
that diminishes unfairly what was true devotion. I remember coming in 
and finding her sitting downstairs, on a Sunday afternoon when the office 
was usually locked, typing letters, answering the telephone, and responding 
when the doorbell rang. She was extremely effective during the negotiations 
with the men's club, and she worked tirelessly on the complicated job of 
remodeling the club. 

Miss Florence Minard of Mills College was another tireless member. 
Years later one of her friends said, "Florence did a lot of work, some 
of it above ground, some of it underground." She wrote letters to all 
members describing the dangers of the situation and asking for contributions; 
she devised the Treasure Book, which nowadays is frequently examined by 
visitors to the club library; and at a dark time when the building had been 
condemned as uninhabitable, she called in the Berkeley building inspector, 
took him downstairs, and with him went over the foundation and the rest 
of the structure, wringing from him the admission that although the building 
needed fireproof ing, it was not in the last stages of collapse that had 
been represented.* 

A great deal of money was urgent, and there seemed to be no way of 
raising it and no way of saving the Women's Faculty Club. In the nick 
of time, in 1971 and the interviews again relate more of this came news 
of the grant from the Haas family that saved the club. 

Although the front elevation of the Women's Faculty Club today looks 
much as it has always looked, the building that resulted from the renova 
tion is a combination of the old and new. While preserving the best 
features of the old it has of necessity and also by design introduced 
improvements that have gone far beyond the simple and economical plan of 
John Galen Howard. In addition, it admits men to active membership. Thus, 
not long ago, I was sitting in the lounge and two men walked in. "This 
is the nicest place on the campus," said one to the other, en route to 
lunch. Not bad, I thought, for the dream of Lucy Stebbins. 

Lucy Ward Stebbins's dream began over sixty years ago, and the oral 
histories reach back across the decades to remember her. It has been a 
pleasure for me to go back over the decades in my memories of the club. 
I have controlled the temptation to chat about special friends at the club, 
but I want to add something here about four particularly devoted members 
who are as identified with its existence for me as is the name of its 
foundress . 

*See Appendices. 


One dear, kind person was Miss Sarah Davis, small, frail, with 
precarious eyesight, but cordiality itself, in spite of what I considered 
notably limited strength. Access into Miss Davis 's room was challenging 
because of a series of ropes or clotheslines which stretched from wall 
to wall, serving as auxiliary closets and filing cases. On one line hung 
a few garments, while on the other were notes, letters, and sometimes 
clippings. One would-be wit and summer visitor said at breakfast, "To 
get into Miss Davis's room you've got to know the ropes." A freezing 
silence followed. Miss Davis was a founding member and long the club 

Another kind person with limited strength was Mrs. Harold Bruce, the 
widow of Harold Bruce of the English Department, and the sister of Walter 
Morris Hart. She told me that when she was about forty her husband died 
suddenly. Determined to teach, Dorothy Bruce went to Stanford for her 
Ph.D. She could have perfectly well have gone to Berkeley, but she thought 
her late husband's colleagues would be too kind to her academically, and 
she wanted to earn her degree on her own merits. In spite of her failing 
health she frequently invited a few fortunate summer residents to her room, 
where she told numerous stories, and reminisced about the English Department, 
and her gentle conversation and knowledge of the campus softened the sting 
of newness for many newcomers. And if there is a heaven, next to her there is 
her sister-in-law, Amy Bumstead, a person truly kind in the best sense 
of the word. 

But as far as a knowledge of the history of the university is concerned, 
the two prize winners in my experience, at least were Margaret Murdock 
and May Dornin. The scope of Margaret Murdock 's friendships and acquain 
tances was astonishing. She loved to tell stories, yet was peerlessly 
modest. Because she played the Campanile bells several times a week, she 
often played songs in honor of foreign visitors at the club, particularly 
on the days they were leaving. She was delighted to fill requests to play 
favorites from Gilbert and Sullivan. Her own oral history is in The 
Bancroft Library, and her memories of the club are contained herein. 

May Dornin, also an interviewee in this oral history, was a walking 
encyclopedia about the development of the university and the Bay Area. 
It was only fitting that she was the University archivist. Yet her 
enthusiasm reached far beyond. She had been a Sierra Club hiker and had 
gone down the Colorado River at least twice. She was an expert photographer 
with a beautiful sense of composition. Deeply interested in the history 
of northern California, she had a vivid chronological sense of what had 
happened. Her double room at the club was lined with books, and stacks 
of books stood on the floor. When she started to talk about the university 
her face lit up. She could tell delightful anecdotes about Benjamin Ide 
Wheeler, usually presidentially on his horse. She was a devotee of John 
Galen Howard and fascinating about the history of the landscaping of the 

campus. She took me once on a tour of the changing neighborhoods of 
Oakland and Berkeley, from Telegraph Avenue's Sather Gate to Jack London 
Square, and I could never again look at those squalid buildings with 
indifferent eyes. 

May, like everyone involved in this story of the Women's Faculty Club, 
loved the university. And like many of us, over the years the love became 
a love of the memories. Before this tale of a summer visitor becomes too 
much that, I will stop. But a good oral history interview makes one privy 
to the moment, and I hope that someone has taped May's description of the 
funeral of Henry Morse Stephens. Although Henry Morse Stephens died many 
years earlier, in 1919, May's account of that hushed gathering overflowing 
Faculty Glade, and of President Wheeler's eulogy, and of the tolling of 
the Campanile bells, was so graphic that I always felt as if she had just 
come in from the services. Amen, to history. 

Helene Maxwell Brewer 

January 1983 
Berkeley, California 


There is no institution at any other great university in this country 
comparable to the Women's Faculty Club of the University of California at 
Berkeley. Why that is so has to do with women's "place" at various times, 
in different ivied halls. The women who founded and supported the concept 
of a separate women's club at Berkeley were impelled to such action as the 
result of a grossly misguided denial to them of entry to The (significantly 
so capitalized) Faculty Club. That rejection galvanized a certain group of 
women to form a club and build a building. 

In October 1923 the Women's Faculty Club moved into newly completed 
quarters in a comfortable, handsome brown-shingled John Galen Howard-designed 
home by the waters of Strawberry Creek. Sixty years later that event is 
still remembered by a few, and the connections to that place on the Berkeley 
campus for women of the faculty, the staff, and certain community women and 
scholars from this country and abroad are, as ever, strong and very fond. 
Whether the club was central to the lives of its members, or peripheral, 
whether a residence or a place of work, an issue or a cause, it was always 
a pleasant place to be. A refuge for some, a symbol and a rallying-place for 
others, when the club's existence was threatened in the Sixties the members 
really began to know and appreciate it, and each other, in a way they had 
not before. Now, in 1983, this beautifully-landscaped, authentically old 
corner of the Berkeley campus is more happily established than ever before, 
more comfortable, and its oral history is a way of ensuring that the 
vicissitudes of the years gone by are not entirely relegated to the archives. 

The oral history of the Women's Faculty Club was proposed in 1981 with 
the knowledge that there were available as interviewees club members who were 
active with Lucy Ward Stebbins, the dean of women and leader among the 
founders of the club in 1919. The span of interviews was conceived to 
gather knowledge of the club's past, as well as to develop the chronology 
of events leading up to the decade which threatened the club's existence as 
a separate institution on the Berkeley campus. Oral history was particularly 
well suited to the kind of anecdotal, recollected history-gathering the club 
had in mind. The interviewees were chosen for their ability to be significant 
informants, either participants or eye-witnesses. Not just one person or 
point of view was elicited, and not everything was said, and not everyone 
heard from, but the eleven interviews together tell a very f':ll story, 
documentary and personal. The interviewees of course had their own life 
histories, and for the sake of University of California history, the history 
of women in academia, and women's history, some biographical material is 

The experience of doing this oral history was upbeat, cooperative, and 
complex. It was a grand effort to try to encapsulate so much time and so many 
people. The interviewees were responsive, concerned to recall, fairly, what 
they knew, and as the reader will see, reluctant to indulge in blame or 
hindsight. Each interviewee reviewed her transcript with care. We all look 
forward to the history being used by scholars, and becoming a dog-eared 
favorite in the Women's Faculty Club Library. It would be fine if this 
effort spurred more club members to give their reminiscences to the club 
historian, as they experience the significance of their institution and its 

The Women's Faculty Club Oral History was funded as a project of the club, 
with generous support from Prytanean Alumnae, Inc. Individual donors to the 
project were Josephine Miles, Mary Ann Johnson, Agnes Roddy Robb, Gudveig 
Gordon-Britland, and Margaret Mould. We consider it fortunate that historian 
Helena Maxwell Brewer was willing to delve into her memories to provide an 
introduction to the club. And I wish to thank the office staff of the club 
for unlocking the secrets of access to the vault, and for helping in many 

The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record 
autobiographical interviews with persons prominent in recent California 
history. The office is under the direction of Willa K. Baum, division head, 
and under the administrative supervision of James D. Hart, the director of 
The Bancroft Library. 

Suzanne B. Riess 

Senior Editor/Interviewer 

25 March 1983 

Regional Oral History Office 

486 The Bancroft Library 

University of California at Berkeley 






The following memoirs are part of the program to document the history of the 
University with major support from the U.C. Berkeley Foundation or the University 

Bound, indexed copies of the transcripts of the following interviews are 
available at cost to libraries for deposit in noncirculating collections for 
scholarly use. 

Adams, Frank, "Frank Adams, University of California on Irrigation, Reclamation, 
and Water Administration." 1956, 491 p. 

*Amerine, Maynard A., "The University of California and the State's Wine Industry." 
1971, 142 p. 

*Bird, Grace Oral History Project, in Two Volumes 

Volume I: "Leader in Junior College Education at Bakersfield and the University 

of California." 1978, 184 p. 
Volume II: "Bakersfield Remembers Grace V. Bird." 1978, 158 p. 

Birge, Rs-"niopH Thayer, "Raymond Thayer Birge, Physicist." 1960, 395 p. 

Blaisdell, Allen C., "Foreign Students and the Berkeley International House, 
1928-1961." 1968, 419 p. 

Chaney, Ralph Works, "Ralph Works Chaney, Ph.D., Paleobotanist , Conservationist." 
1960, 277 p. 

*Chao, Yuen Ren, "Chinese Linguist, Phonologist, Composer, and Author." 1977, 242 p. 

Corley, James V., "Serving the University in Sacramento." 1969, 143 p. 

Cross, Ira Brown, "Portrait of an Economics Professor." 1967, 128 p. 
*Cruess, William V., "A Half Century in Food and Wi.e Technology." 1967, 122 p. 

Davidson, Mary Blossom, "The Dean of Women and the Importance of Students." 1967, 79 p 

Dennes, William R. , "Philosophy and the University Since 1915." 1970, 162 p. 

Donnelly, Ruth, "The University's Role in Housing Services." 1970, 129 p. 

Dornin, May, (1981-in process) 

*Memoirs of people prominent in the history of the University, undertaken as part 
of another series or as diverse memoirs with extramural funding. 

University History Series xiii 

Ebright, Carroll "Ky", "California Varsity and Olympics Crew Coach." 1968, 74 p. 

Erdman, Henry E. , "Agricultural Economics: Teaching, Research, and Writing: 
University of California, Berkeley, 1922-1969." 1971, 252 p. 

Evans, Clinton W. , "California Athlete, Coach, Administrator, Ambassador." 1968, 106 p. 

Foster, Herbert B., "The Role of the Engineer's Office in the Development of the 
University of California Campuses." 1960, 134 p. 

Gordon, Walter A., "Athlete, Officer in Law Enforcement and Administration, 

Governor of the Virgin Islands," Volume I: 1979, 397 p.; Volume II: 1980, 224 p. 

Grether, Ewald T., (1981-in process) 

Griffiths, Farnham P., "The University of California and the California Bar." 
1954, 46 p. 

*Hagar, Ella Barrows, "Continuing Memoirs: Family, Community, University." 1974, 272 p, 
Hamilton, Brutus, "Student Athletics and the Voluntary Discipline." 1967, 50 p. 

*Harding, Sidney T., "A Life in Western Water Development." 1967, 524 p. 
Harris, Joseph P., (1981-in process) 

*Hart, James D., "Fine Printers of the San Francisco Bay Area." 1969, 86 p. 
Hays, William Charles, "Order, Tr.ste, and Grace in Architecture." 1968, 241 o. 

*Heller, Elinor Raas, (1981-in process) 

Hildebrand, Joel H. , "Chemistry, Education, and the University of California." 
1962, 196 p. 

*Hotchkis, Preston, Sr., "One Man's Dynamic Role in California Politics and Water 
Development, and World Affairs." 1980, 121 p. 

*Huff, Elizabeth, "Teacher and Founding Curator of the East Asiatic Library: from 
Urbana to Berkeley by Way of Peking." 1977, 278 p. 

*Huntington, Emily, "A Career in Consumer Economics and Social Insurance. " 1971, 111 p. 

Hutchison, Claude B., "The College of Agriculture, University of California, 
1922-1952." 1962, 524 p. 

*Jenny, Hans, (1981-in process) 

Johnston, Marguerite Kulp, and Mixer, Joseph R., "Student Housing, Welfare, and 
the ASUC." 1970, 157 p. 

University History Series xi v 

*Joslyn, Maynard A., "A Technologist Views the California Wine Industry." 
1974, 151 p. 

Kerr, Clark, (1981-in process) 
Kroeber-Quinn, Theodora, (1981-in process) 

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Lenzen, Victor F., "Physics and Philosophy." 1965, 206 p. 
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*McGauhey, Percy H. , "The Sanitary Engineering Research Laboratory: Administration, 
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*Metcalf, Woodbridge, "Extension Forester, 1926-1956." 1969, 138 p. 
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Miles, Josephine, "Josephine Miles: Poetry, Teaching, and Scholarship." 1980, 344 p. 
Mitchell, Lucy Sprague, "Pioneering in Education." 1962, 174 p. 

Mixer, Joseph R. , and Johnston, Marguerite Kulp, "Student Housing, Welfare, and 
the ASUC." 1970, 157 p. 

Neuhaus, Eugen, "Reminiscences: Bay Area Art and the University of California Art 
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Neylan, John Francis, "Politics, Law, and the University of California." 1962, 319 p. 
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University History Series 


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University History Series xvi 

"Centennial History Project, 1954-1960." 329 p. 

Includes interviews with George P. Adams, Anson Stiles Blake, Walter C. 
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*"The Prytaneans: An Oral History of the Prytanean Society and Its Members." 
In two volumes. 

Volume I, "1901-1920." 1970, 307 p. 
Volume II, "1921-1930." 1977, 313 p. 


TABLE OF CONTENTS Josephine Smith 

1) Founding Members and the Building Committee 

2) Managing the Club 

3) Residential Members 

4) Arrangements with the Men's Club 14 

5) The Vote Not to Merge 16 

6) The Club as a Forum 

7) Personal Background and Information 21 

8) Thirty-six Years at the University 24 

9) Interests in Printing, Writing, and Skiing 26 

Josephine Smith 
August 17, 1981 
Interviewed at home 

1) Founding Members and the Building Committee 

Smith: One of the reasons that I am a little hesitant about washing any 
dirty linen in public is I don't think that's politic. The one 
thing I'm proud of is that in the thirty years in which I was 
budget officer, nothing ever got out of my office. No raises, no 
promotions, no questions, no appropriations, no anything! It was 
just absolutely confidential, as it was supposed to be. 

Riess: Well, let's just see what happens. And as I said to you, if you, 
when you get the record back, want to wash the linen, that's okay. 

Smith: Yes, all right. 

I was horrified to realize that this year is my fiftieth year 
in belonging to the club. [Women's Faculty Club] I have an 
elephant's memory, so I sat down one day and thought about the 
progress of it. This is the chronological order as I see it. 

In the first place, I think the club is unique if you look at 
particularly other women's faculty clubs: we have always been in 
the black. Now, there were many, many times when we came awfully 
near either Scylla or Charybdis, and you never knew where it was 
going to hit you. But we weathered every storm, and now we are 
knock on wood! financially sound. 

Riess: Were you always associated with the budget end of the club? From 
the beginning? 

Smith: It was the budget end of the university. 

Riess: But I wondered also whether as soon as you became part of the club, 
that was an interest of yours. 

Smith: No. My interest was in having a quiet place to have lunch. As soon 
as the pressure became heavier and heavier, I reserved a table 
permanently by the window, took my Saturday Evening Post, which was 
then current, and sat there. One of the personnel officers came up 
to me, and she said, "I'd like to talk business." 


Smith : 
Riess : 

I said, "Oh, no you don't! This is my time. Why, I'll talk 
business at one o'clock, and not before." So that was that. 
Everybody understood that I was like who was it? Gloria Swanson. 
"I vant to be alone." [laughter] 

I was a director of the club for quite a while, but when I got 
the budget off my neck, then I became most actively interested in 
the club, and not only was chairman of the finance committee, but 
then I became treasurer, and then I became the financial advisor 
because, as I say, figures are my line. 

When I retired 
quite some time ago 
and I don't wish to 
be an awful fate! 
auditing firm that 
[Goodell and Henry] 
and could no longer 
put what I 've done 

, which was in 1954 you can see that that was 
, everybody that I know on the campus is gone, 
live forever; I think the Flying Dutchman would 
so when I retired, the auditor that we had, the 
I had gotten for half price for the club, 
had so much business that he moved to Oakland 
take care of us, so I said, "Well, might as well 
to use," so I audited the books for nearly ten 

At that time, Margaret Murdock had taken over the management of 
the office. She, of course, had the very first knowledge of the 
club, because she was Miss [Dean Lucy] Stebbins' assistant before 
the club was established. She knows all the beginning. I think 
she was there in 1919, and 1919 was the date in which I began my 
university service. 

And you joined the club in 1931, you said earlier? 


And why hadn't you considered joining it before then? 

Because I didn't think it was necessary. At that time, the academic 
atmosphere prevailed, and the administrative people were on 
sufferance sort of. Not exactly on sufferance, but there were not 
so many of them. I'll come to that in the beginning. This is the 

If you look at the record of other clubs, and particularly 
women's clubs, I don't think you're going to find that they had the 
financial record that we have. I told you about always being in 
the black. Long before ERA, and all the publicity they got. The 
club was established on the same principles. 

Dean Stebbins was a wonderful example of the iron fist in the 
velvet glove. She had an iron will, and she appeared very sweet on 
the surface. But she was determined to get what she wanted, and 
when she was told that the men's club, The Faculty Club (capitalized), 
had no place for women, and did not want them, that was it. 



Riess : 

Riess : 


There were other early faculty women, like Jessica Peixotto, and 
Agnes Fay Morgan. Why was it that Dean Stebbins took charge? Why 
do you think she was the one? 

That I don't know. I knew Miss Stebbins very well, because she 
just lived a little ways down on Durant, and when I walked down to 
go shopping, she always invited me in, or she was out on the porch 
and I stopped. So in addition to what I knew of her in the club, I 
came to know her personally very well. 

I don't know why, except to use the vernacular she got her 
back up, and probably at the way in which the then president of The 
Faculty Club told her they did not want women, and had no place for 
them. I think Margaret Murdock said that this happened the first 
time that The Faculty Club extended their building. You see, 
Maybeck did the Men's Faculty Club, and John Galen Howard did ours. 

Although the Academic Senate denied the statement, it was 
commonly known on the campus that they did not want women on the staff . 
I think that is another thing that 

On the staff! But they already had them on the staff. 
I know, but they did not want to advance them. 
I see, or encourage them in any way. 

Or encourage them. At that time there was a list of very famous 
women on the campus. Who was there? Miss Stebbins, Agnes Fay 
Morgan, Mary Patterson, Jessica Peixotto, Pauline Sperry, and later 

Who was Pauline Sperry? I don't know that name. 

Mathematics. She may have been a little later than the rest of 

Also later, there was Sophia Levy, who achieved, I think, 
national recognition that wasn't given to her by the University. 
She was given a leave of absence, and was put in charge of the 
mathematics training of the Air Force men in calculus for navigation. 

Isn't that interesting? 
tradition there. 

Women in mathematics that's a bit of a 

Smith: And Pauline Sperry was in mathematics, and very good. Here 

s an 

example of the way women were treated. Pauline Sperry 's friend was 
Alice Tabor, who was an instructor in German, very thoroughly 
scholarly person who did an outstanding job. She did not publish. 
Pauline Sperry went many times to the Academic Senate, when Miss 

Smith: Tabor's people got recognition, and pointed out that simply 

because she did not publish, did not do research, she was held back. 
Poor Miss Tabor stayed an instructor in German the rest of her 
academic career. That's one reason why I was so interested in the 
findings of this committee I don't know its formal name.* Even 
now, women are $1700 per annum less than their masculine counter 
parts. Well, that's that. 

Oh, say, the women that have achieved distinction, the two 
women that have received distinction in the club and been given the 
position of Faculty Research Lecturer are Agnes Fay Morgan, and 
Josephine Miles. [telephone rings; brief tape interruption] 

Dr. Morgan was the first one. [Faculty Research Lecturer] She 
was very concerned. I knew Dr. Morgan very well. Although she had 
often given reports personally to the Regents, and even several 
times exhibits of her nutrition research, she said she had nightmares 
before the lecture. She thought how awful it would be if nobody 
came. She was very much on pins and needles, but when the time came 
there was an overflow audience. 

Riess: You've mentioned a lot of people who were on the first board. There 
were a couple of other names: E.M. Coulter. 

Smith: Oh, yes. Edith Coulter, Dr. Coulter. I guess she had a Ph.D. She 
was the first president of the Building Committee. She was a 
professor of librarianship. 

Riess: And Sarah Davis, and her campus address was Hearst Hall. She was in 
the Physical Education Department? 

Smith: Yes. 

Riess: And Fancher in home economics? 

Smith: Helen Fancher. 

Riess: And Agnes Fay Morgan. Mary Patterson was in home economics also? 

Smith: Yes. There was a Department of Household Science first. It 

consisted of the two heads, Agnes Fay Morgan, and Mary Patterson. 
They did not get on together because their aims were entirely 
different. Dr. Morgan was engaged in research in nutrition, in which 
Miss Patterson was not interested. Miss Patterson was very artistic, 

^Committee on Senate Policy, 1982. 

Smith: and was interested in household science. So they agreed to split, 
and made two departments: the Department of Nutrition and the 
Department of Household Arts. 

By the way, Miss Patterson did the seal that we [Women's 
Faculty Club] use. I discovered it in the vault. I think Margaret 
Murdock told me about it. I took it out, and printed it, and was so 
enamored of it that I put it on the letterhead, and everyone fell 
for it. Now we have it spread all over the place: the dishes, etc. 

Riess: It's a very nice monogram. 

Smith: Yes, isn't it? I think it is beautiful. That is symbolic of Mary 
Patterson's work. 

Riess: Just to back up again, before Lucy Stebbins brought the women 

together to talk about a club, do you understand that there was an 
informal manner of meeting of women? 

Smith: That I don't know. Now, Margaret Murdock could tell you that. You 
see, she knows all those things. 

Riess: As a young administration person on campus, what was your view of 
the women in the Women's Faculty Club? 

Smith: The academics were snobby. 
Riess: So it was another world. 

Smith: It was another world. That brings me to the second year of the club. 
At that time, it was set up, either Miss Stebbins or the Board of 
Directors I can't remember who all the Board of Directors were. 
On your list, if you put in Helen Fancher, you should put in 
Margaret Beattie, who was in hygiene. And there are some more gaps 
in there. 

Riess: The seven-member board in 1919 was what I was looking at. 

Smith: But I'm thinking about 1922, '23. To go back a couple of years to 
the beginning. Dr. Morgan said they probably made her president 
because she was the only person who would be tough enough to tell 
anybody off. Those are her exact words to me. I don't think they 
better be published. 

There were two separate clubs at that time: the Building 
Committee, which had its separate president, and its separate 
board of directors, and which owned the building, which made itself 
liable for the mortgage and had everything to do with the building; 
and then tb^ club proper. The first year, only persons of academic 
rank were eligible. That did not pay. 

Smith: Dr. Morgan saw that the life of the club would be very short to 
depend on that. So she insisted that they raise the dues, and 
invite the persons at the head of the administrative staff of the 
departments. I was invited at that time along with every other 
secretary or administrator of that category, and did not see any 
reason why I should belong. 

Riess: In fact, they even had an associate status for people outside the 
University, didn't they? 

Smith: Yes. They thought that that would add a little glory, and took in 
people such as Mrs. Baldwin Woods no, she came in later. Anyway, 
they had various people that would add glory to the club. 

Riess: In fact, was it to gather in some faculty wives, is that what you're 

Smith: I think so. 

Riess: So Agnes Fay Morgan had to be strong enough to face down what 
particular group of people? People within the club? 

Smith: At that time, there was a lot of I don't know whether it's feminine 
jealousy, or just that feminines couldn't get along. There was a 
lot of nasty little fights. Dr. Morgan just said what was what, 
what they could do. That's how administrative people got into the 
club. As you look over the roster now, it's ninety-nine and 
9/10 percent administrative, and not faculty. You have an awful 
time to interest the faculty. I have found that they look down 
their noses at the administrative group. 

Riess: Historically, but not any more. 

Smith: Well, I don't know. I haven't been on the campus lately, so I don't 
know what the attitude is. 

Another point that I think what was I going to say? 

Riess: I was going to ask you about this division between the Building 

Committee and the club itself. One was in the service of the other? 

Smith: The Building Committee, being responsible for the mortgage, held 
the reins. Miss Edith Coulter was chairman of the Building 
Committee, or the president of it, for ages and ages. 

Riess: But I thought that was a committee that was supposed to dissolve as 
soon as 

Smith: Well, that didn't dissolve until the mortgage was paid. 

Riess: And until the mortgage was paid, power in the club? 

Smith: They owned the building, and the club paid rent to them, which were 
their funds to pay on the mortgage. 

I know the point that I wanted to make. It isn't particularly 
apropos at this time. But you take an academic person, or a busy 
administrative person, they don't have time to give to the affairs 
of the club as they should. The most successful people have been 
the administrative people. In looking back over the various 
presidents, I think the two presidents that have done the most for 
the club are Ruth Donnelly, who had charge of the housing committee, 
and Margaret Uridge,who, as you know, was the reference librarian 
for the university. Ruth Donnelly only was able to do that when 
Mrs. Davidson released her from some of her duties in the dean of 
women's office. The club was in very great financial danger at that 
time, and Mrs. Davidson thought that this might be the only way to 
meet the very critical situation. Mrs. Davidson felt justified in 
doing this since the club is legally acknowledged as "an integral 
part of the university." 

Finally when the mortgage was paid, there was just one 
organization. You see, before that the club paid $250 every month 
to the Building Committee, and any more, if it were possible, which 
it wasn't. So by those very small steps, we finally ended all 
obligation. We burned the mortgage in the fireplace and had quite a 

Riess: I notice that the Building Committee set it up so that one quarter 
of the financing was in stocks, and the rest was in bonds. What 
happened to the stockholding aspect of that? 

Smith: I don't know. Although at that time, when it was closed, I think I 
was the chairman of the Building Committee. But I can't answer that. 
I just don't know. I doubt if anybody does! [chuckles] Anyway, 
that's that. 

Then time went on after that, it was financially peaceful. 
Riess: Was the Building Committee an elected committee every year? 
Smith: Yes. 
Riess: Was it, in fact, the most powerful? 

Smith: Yes, I think so, although of course each committee thought it was 
the more powerful. But really, since they owned the building, I 
think that they were the more powerful. 

Miss Coulter, as I say, reigned for many years as chairman of 
the Building Committee. She was a bit autocratic, but I think that 
a chairman has a right to be autocratic. 


Riess: In all of those years, did the issue of joining with The Faculty 
Club ever come up? 

Smith: No, not yet. 

Riess: That was not a recurrent theme over the years. 

Smith : No . 

2) Managing the Club 

Smith: The cook who served so long was Mrs. Mabel Battle. I think the meals 
were just like home cooking. I ate there day after day and never 
tired of it any more than you tire of what you have at home. Mrs. 
Battle finally reached the age of retirement and the club took meals 
from the ASUC, the student service. It was very unsatisfactory; the 
organization was very hard and arbitrary to deal with. The meals 
came on a cart, and one time the cart upset, and there was no dinner. 
So that didn't prove a success. 

Then the club hired a cook from the union, and tied an albatross 
around their necks, because the union had certain requirements, and 
the union had regular salary increases. Finally it ended up that 
the cook got more than the manager of the club. "The cook must have 
a helper, who served so many hours," and so on. 

Riess: How many meals was the cook responsible for? 

Smith: The club served breakfast for the residents in the little dining room. 
(I think it has another name now, but anyway, that's what we called 
it.) The cook was responsible for lunch and dinner. And dinner was 
the one that always put us in the red, because everyone went home, 
particularly the faculty went home, and didn't want to come out again. 

In the early days many of the faculty just met their wives and 
had dinner there, and it was very pleasant. It declined and 
declined until dinner became a Jonah. 

Riess: You're saying that for a while there were men faculty that were 
meeting their wives there? 

Smith: Yes. I can remember Mr. Allen, who was professor of Greek, always 
met Mrs. Allen at certain times, and they very often had dinner 

Riess: It was because she was a member. 


Riess : 
Riess : 


Riess : 

Smith ; 

Yes. You could bring a guest. But they weren't free to come over 
of themselves, as they are now. 

Was the lunch a lunch, or was it a dinner-type lunch? 

It was a rather substantial lunch. Dinners used to be very nice. 

But it was only lunch that you had when you were there, wasn't it? 


I've read in the history that originally Miss Stebbins had Miss 
Ransom as manager. Was that of Ransom and Bridges School? Is that 
the same woman? 

Yes. That was she. She was the first person that I remember as 
manager of the club. She was a very gracious manager, and it was 
very successful. Then there have been- other managers, successful, 
unsuccessful, gracious and non-gracious. 

Tell me a little bit more about the role of the manager, 
be a hostess? 

Is she to 

Yes. A sort of a hostess in general over the club and its activities. 
Now we have, you might say, a sub-hostess of the dining room, whose 
duty it is to see that everything is correct, and who takes care of 
anything special or so on. I think the club have been very 
fortunate. Mrs. U ridge got Mrs. Rockwell, who is a friend of hers, 
as manager. And she, aside from Miss Ransom, to my mind, rates the 
highest of any manager we've had. We've had a modern person, very 
modern, as manager; we've had a conservative person; and we've had 
temperamental managers, and so on. 

The office was usually taken care of who kept the books first? 
When Margaret Murdock was no longer president of the club I know, 
we had Amy Bumstead, who was the accountant for the ASUC, as the 
chief accountant. She did all the football and so on for the ASUC; 
at that time, that was a million-dollar business. Miss Bumstead 
took hold of our accounts and brought them all into shape, and 
everything was wonderful. She reached the age of retirement, or she 
had retired from ASUC, and I forget what happened her husband died 
she no longer could manage the accounts. So Margaret Murdock, after 
being president, took over charge of the office. 

That was when I audited the books. I don't think it was for 
quite ten years, but it was a long, long period. I saved the club 
several thousand dollars by doing it. It was no effort for me; I 
was very familiar with the procedure and everything, so I made all 
the annual reports and did that. It isn't that l_ did it: I was just 
there, and just able to do it. 


Riess: Yes. It made sense. 

Smith: I don't want any emphasis on the first personal pronoun singular. 

I was very interested that Margaret, whose title, before she 
had retired, was Credentials Counselor in Education she counseled 
all those who graduated from the Department of Education should 
have shown such an accurate aptitude for figures . I have only seen 
one other person that could compare with it . In all those years 
that I did that, she made one mistake, and it was seventy-five cents. 
I spent more time chasing that seventy-five cents than I would 
$75,000! [laughter] But she managed it most efficiently. It was 
under her that Mrs. [Gudveig] Gordon- Britland succeeded her. She 
had trained her . 

Riess: Were these volunteer positions? 

Smith: No. Margaret objected to taking money; she said she didn't need it 
and she would work for the club for something like $300 a year, 
which is $25 a month. Mrs. Bumstead was a paid position. I don't 
know what it is now. I have no longer any means of knowing. 

Then there came another president. I was still treasurer of 
the club. I don't know whether I should say this or not, but I was 
greatly irked. We had a Frenchman and his wife, and his name was 
[Gaston] Abbo . He looked very good at the beginning, but things, to 
my mind, were heading straight for bankruptcy. 

Riess: A Frenchman and his wife? 

Smith: He was manager of the club, and she supervised the kitchen. 

Theoretically, it was a wonderful combination. But actually, as I 
say, it brought the club to the brink of bankruptcy. 

I was treasurer at that time, and I was very unpopular because 
I kept howling "wolf." They said it was not the case, but the 
figures remained that way. I spent quite a bit of thought in 
various ways of saving money and recommendations to be made. And 
the president at that time of the club did not see I wrote the 
recommendations out and gave them to the secretary of the Board of 
Directors to include in the minutes, but never once did they appear! 
So I thought since that was the case, it was no "se wasting my time 
any more, and I resigned as treasurer. Not from the club, but as 

Riess: What year was this? 

Smith: Oh, Lord, I don't know. Well, I think if you can find out what year 
Margaret Thal-Larsen was president maybe somebody in the office 
would know what year it was. [1967-1969] 


Riess: Did your suspicions in fact prove correct? 

Smith: I know at one time we had a balance of sixty dollars. I could make 
no impression on several people who were very much in favor or were 
very taken by the Frenchman and his wife. 

Riess: I suppose they thought that was classy, to have a Frenchman and his 
wife? Was it that? 

Smith: Yes, it added eclat. [laughs] 

Then there was of course there was one Board of Directors by 
that time. I guess I still must have been on the Board of Directors. 
They were a new bunch, and terribly modern, and the house they said 
this was a worn-out building, and some people talked, I don't know 
whether in joke or not, of tearing it down and building another one. 
This was the beginning, you see, of the talk of joining with the 
men's club. 

Riess: Are you talking about the late sixties now? 

Smith: It was about 1967, '68. It was around in that locality the late 

One of the older members, Mrs. Samuel May, Bernice May, was 
very insulted that it was called an old building, all run-down, and 
we needed new all over. So because she was on the city council, she 
got the city inspector of buildings, Mr. Atkins, to come up and 
review the condition of the building.* He said there is a letter 
in the file somewhere; I have seen the letter he said that the 
building was in absolutely sound condition. The foundations were as 
good as when they were put in; the structure of the building had not 
notably deteriorated; perhaps some of the wiring could be improved. 
But if he were asked his opinion, he would say it was in excellent 

Riess: That's very interesting. This modern board, what was the composition 
of it? 

Smith: You mean names? 

Riess: I mean names, or I mean were they more academic than administrative? 
Did they have some particular reason to throw over the Women's 
Faculty Club? 

*December 14, 1970. See Appendices. 







Oh, no. They were administrative. One was in the office of the 
attorney for the Regents. The attorney was at that time let's see, 
who was it? It was before [Donald L.] Reidhaar I can't think who 
was the attorney. 

Maybe it's not names that I want, 
feeling at that time. 

I want to know why there was that 

It was due to a very modern manager. That's shown in the matter of 
well, how can I best illustrate it? When we first served anything 
but water, tea or coffee, it was sherry. Ruth Donnelly and I went 
to Dean Stebbins and said, "How would it be if we had a pre-dinner 
hour, a sherry hour, and we raised the money for it so that it did 
not come out of the club's money." Dean Stebbins said it was a 
fine idea. So we proceeded. We had several remarks from some 
moss-bound people, but we proceeded and served sherry at the annual 
dinner. At the next annual dinner we established the "Sherry Hour." 

With this modern manager, who had permission to employ her 
husband, we served cocktails. And believe me, they were very strong 
cocktails, too. They were overloaded with brandy. I can take two 
cocktails, but beyond that I don't usually go. These cocktails, 
when I had one, I'd had more than the equivalent of two. Two people 
came to disgrace that night, which didn't please me at all. I 
thought it cheapened the club, particularly as the invited guests 
were President [Charles] Hitch and Chancellor [Roger] Heyns and their 
wives, and the occasion was the bestowal of the Centennial honors. 

The modern people were people who were trying to make the club 
popular at all costs, is that the idea? 

Yes. Now, one thing, we had an art show, and took the living room, 
and turned it into screens with an exhibit of pictures, and everybody 
dressed up, and it was a big success. That was one thing to their 
credit. But otherwise the attitude was very much modern, and "we'd 
been in the back woods all the time." I was not in favor of that 
attitude, nor of the way in which the Frenchman was hired. 

After the previous manager had left due to ill health, we got a 
housemother from one of the sororities. I thought that that would 
be a good idea, that she would be sort of hardened to things and 
requests and so on, and would know how to deal with it. She thought 
the job was a walkover, and so easy she didn't need to give it any 
attention, with the result that she didn't do what a couple of 
members of the board had asked, so she was out of favor. 

Then this Frenchman and his wife turned up, and even before she 
had completed a month, she was dismissed! I did not care for that 
way of doing business. I abstained from voting, because I didn't 
approve of getting someone, and not even letting her finish a month 
before being urged out the door to welcome a Frenchman who had no 
conception of finances. 


Smith: And that was when, as I say, I made recommendation after recommen 
dation where you could save money or where you could cut corners, 
and so on, and they never even appeared in the minutes. 

Then, it ended up I think at one time where I know that we only 
had sixty dollars leeway. That, to me, meant we were certainly on 
the verge of bankruptcy. The policy at that time was to keep all 
financial matters from the members. I think somebody got hold of 
the fact that the club was not doing well financially, and that's 
when the first inkling came of joining with the men's club, who had 
an immense debt to the Regents. 

3) Residential Members 

Riess: In the midst of all of this, do the people who live there, the 

residents of the club, do they represent a whole separate voice? 

Smith: No. No. 

Riess: Do they get involved in these issues? 

Smith: No, because they don't know about it. That was my main point. They 
didn't know that we were just on the verge of bankruptcy. 

Riess: Traditionally, the people who have just used it as a living club 
have not been involved in the running of it? 

Smith: No, they have not become involved in the government or the 

administration of the club at all. Unless several of them get 
together and talk to the president or talk to the Board of Directors 
and so on. Some of those things can be quite ticklish, quite sticky. 

A long time ago, from the beginning until about this time, 
there used to be what was called the Family Table. All the 
residents sat at the Family Table. They were mostly the academics; 
they stuck together and looked down upon the administrators. 

Riess: That's who was living there mostly, women faculty members? 

Smith: A lot of them were that way. Some were it's hard to tell when the 
administrators took over almost entirely. Say, for instance, Miss 
Coulter always sat at the Family Table, and she had all her minions, 
too. Then all the other people that were there if the academics 
came in from outside, naturally, their friends were academic and 
they sat there. But there was great feeling I know, not because 
I had any feeling, I didn't care, but a friend of mine who was partly 


Smith: academic she was curator of birds in the museum of vertebrate 

zoology she felt that the academics set themselves up and looked 
down on the rest. So she never sat at the Family Table. Maybe 
that's horrid to say; maybe I shouldn't say that. 

Riess: Then the real life of the club was as a lunch club for administrative 

Smith: Yes. As I look back on the personnel at lunch time, ever since I 
can remember, more than half have been administrative people. One 
remark from a person in an agricultural extension, who isn't 
necessarily a classicist, said that the administrative people were 
very stupid. Why should they what did they want to have lunch with 
them for? Now, that's the kind of feminine I don't know what it 
is feminine attitude I cannot stand. I don't like women awfully 
well, per se. I grew up with boys; either you punch the other fellow 
in the nose or you get punched. But you don't make remarks like 
that. That is, to my mind, the worst thing that I know about the 
club. Every now and then it comes out. I have been the subject of 
it, and I don't care for it. 

4) Arrangements with the Men's Club 

Smith: Anyway, this was the beginning, when we had the sixty dollars this 
was the beginning of talking with the men's club [The Faculty Club]. 
I didn't see the necessity of joining with the men's club. Even by 
that time, the men could eat over at our club, and we could eat 
over there for a long time, and write the chits. So I can't see any 
reason why even a man-crazy person should want to go over to the 
men's club when they could anyway. What's the use of joining the 
club? Why not leave them separate? In addition, the aims and 
purposes of the two clubs are entirely different. 

Riess: Was it the academic people who wanted to pull out and go to the men's 

Smith: Not especially. It was more the administrative people. 

So there came a confrontation, and it was put to a vote, and 
the Board of Directors agreed to join the men's club. Mr. Henry 
Poppic, who was an attorney in the city of Berkeley, very prominent 
in city council affairs, was the first honorary masculine director 
he was honorary director, of the Women's Faculty Club. He told Ruth 
Donnelly, and she told me, and she was very careful at repeating what 
someone else had said not distortion, not her idea, but actually 
what the person had said. She said that the reason that she agreed 
is that Poppic told her that the joining would be on the basis of 
membership fee, and that the vote would be comparable the women 
would have a vote. 


Smith: The next day after that meeting with that decision, I happened to 
have something to take care of in regard to bills or to the 
accounts or something. Anyway, I went over to the club about ten 
or half past ten in the morning, and there was the manager of the 
men's club, The Faculty Club, proceeding to roll up our rugs 
preparatory to taking them over to The Faculty Club. 

[To get an idea of those rugs] my friend and I happened to be 
going to auctions, and at that time everybody was having wall-to-wall 
carpets, so beautiful rugs were [being] thrown out. There was this 
old-style Sarouk, which was very large these [looking at her own 
carpets] are what, eight by ten, one like this. The Sarouk, the 
main rug, I think was about eleven by sixteen. I don't remember the 
exact measurements. But do you know, I got it for $167. 

Riess: No! 

Smith: It is now worth thousands of dollars. When I looked at it, it didn't 
have a brack in it; it was in perfect condition. It was a lovely 
rug. The old style Sarouks are not made anymore. It was the most 
wonderful bargain we ever got. I forget now I was told what it's 
appraised at. 

I also got that little Shiraz that used to be in the library at 
auction at a very reasonable price. Then there were the two rugs 
that I had our rug man made me a very good price on those Hamadan 
runners . 

Here was this manager [Chuck Walters], whom Ruth Donnelly and 
the then president of the club had recommended, rolling up the big 
rug to take it over to The Faculty Club. I hit the ceiling. I 
told him that I was a member of the board, that he had no right to 
touch the things which were our furnishings. And in the first place, 
he was doing it unauthorized. He could just roll the rug back and 
just go home and stay there. He was, to me, a very obnoxious person, 
particularly in taking action such as this was without authorization. 
As soon as Mr. McAbee retired, things went from bad to worse. 

Riess: He had been the manager of The Faculty Club? 

Smith: Mr. McAbee had been the manager of The Faculty Club for years and 
years . 

This person Ruth Donnelly, and the then president, who is a most 
intimate friend of mine, thought he would do because he'd been in the 
restaurant business. He was very uncultured, though that isn't a 
necessary qualification, but he was that kind of a person. The 
office reflected his attitude: they were very rude when the 
representative of our office went over to straighten accounts. They 
in fact, got our accounts in such a mess, and did not collect. So 
that was the reason that this first agreement to join was discontinued, 


Smith.: We had a set of brand new dishes, and they took them over; all the 
cute little teapots had their noses broken off and their covers 
lost. They took over our complete set of silver, which was scattered 
to the seven winds of heaven. 

But the thing that I was anxious to preserve were all the 
objects d'art that Albert Bender had given the club. He was most 
generous. His affections were divided between Mills College and 
the Women's Faculty Club. All that beautiful gold carving was given 
by him, so many things were given, and I thought if they start on 
the rugs, I guess they'd take those things over, which was one of 
the reasons that I objected strongly, and I guess violently. 

Anyway, they made such a mess of the accounts that other people 
began to see it, and stopped that. I don't know how much money we 
lost not being collected. There was no follow-up. That's the way 
the men's club operates. I found out afterwards their uncollected 
bills were really something. 

5) The Vote Not to Merge 

Smith: My point of view is the office, of course, the figures, the basis of 
the living of the club. So came the second time [move to merge]. 
I guess it simmered. A lot of people kept it alive, and I'm sure 
they did not know the circumstances . I would have broadcast them, 
but I was not in the position to do anything then. 

Then we came finally to the committee that was appointed by 
Chancellor Heyns . I've forgotten who was on the committee; it 
doesn't matter. The treasurer of the Women's Faculty Club at that 
time campaigned violently for the merger. There were many, many 
members that wanted it. They were in the secretarial range. In 
fact, several of them said that they would resign from the club if 
this merger didn't go through. There was great talk about building 
the glass passageway between the two clubs. 

It was just about accomplished. The husband of a very intimate 
friend of mine, who was Lawrence's right hand man at the Radiation 
Laboratory, told me that the men's club had just issued an assessment 
of twenty dollars per member to have to make up the deficit in their 
interest on their immense loan. It started out with $45,000 and 
extended upward, I don't know at what rate. 

Anyway, it's none of my business, and I did not make any effort 
to find out although I could find out the amount of their loan. 
But it was enough so that it was serious, and their bookkeeping was 


Smith: terrible, and they didn't follow-up on unpaid bills, so that they 
were in such a hole that every member of The Faculty Club was 
assessed twenty dollars. My friend at the Lawrence Radiation 
Laboratory was very irate about that, and he was more irate when I 
told him several circumstances of what had happened. So he said, 
well, why didn't I do something about it? 

Well, after having been invited by an unauthorized person "to 
stay home and stop trying to run the club," I had done just that. 
In other words, I had already been the subject of public vilification, 
which goes off my back like water. I don't care. I was a little 
bit hesitant to make for any further mudholes, but I was against the 
campaigning of the treasurer of the club for the merger, and I 
finally decided that I would see what happened. 

I got the annual report [of The Faculty Club] made by Haskins 
and Sells, that audits the university account. There, on the top of 
page three, among the income listed, was an item "Women's Faculty 
Club, $898" (or $848, I don't remember which). (This sum, by the way, 
was the exact amount which The Faculty Club was short in meeting 
their interest on their loan. And this was in spite of the general 
assessment of twenty dollars levied on all its members.) 

I can remember the three questions which immediately arose in my 
mind on seeing this entry: first, was this a case of barefaced 
effrontery in including OUR money without our authority? second, or 
had some officer of the club given permission to use this sum although 
no formal agreement of the merger had been signed? and third, by 
using a flat sum, such as this, all promised consideration of 
membership fees, etc. no longer existed. Also, I could not see why 
such a well known firm as Haskins and Sells would accept as revenue 
an amount from a separate organization without checking the authori 
zation for it. 

I considered this very seriously and decided that in spite of 
probable unhappy consequences I should no longer stay aloof. With 
permission from the president of our cJub, Peg Uridge, I decided to 
issue a statement of facts so that the members might see the merger 
from a more practical viewpoint. I titled the letter "A Financial 
Warning."* I pointed out that if the merger went into effect, our 
club would be open to arbitrary assessment at any time; that we would 
lose all control over our own money, our two donations ($25,000 from 
Mrs. Mel and $2,500 from Miss Mabel Coulter); we would not only lose 
our identity but lose control over all our accounts and probably lose 
our most desirable furnishings as well. The incident of taking our 
rugs in the first attempt at merging showed very plainly what would 



Smith: I had this letter xeroxed and, again with permission, took advantage 
of the campus mail. The postage on the non-campus addresses was paid 
by me personally. 

At a general meeting of the club before voting on the merger I 
stated the facts as I saw them. As an aside, I should like to say 
that I cleared the treasurer of giving any possible authorization for 
use of our funds. The surprise with which she protested my calling 
attention to the $898 inclusion of our funds showed that the 
realization of what the report indicated hadn't even percolated. 

I ended my talk with the feeling that I had spread out all the 
facts in a plain and clear fashion so that the members could consider 
the merger with the knowledge of what had happened in the past and 
what could and would happen in the future. Doris White, a member of 
the Board of Directors at the time, tape-recorded the meeting, so 
that any point in question can be verified. 

As a result of the decision NOT to merge, fifteen members 
resigned as threatened. 

That was that. The rest of the members, we went on with new 
vigor. Mrs. Uridge had gotten Mrs. Rockwell for a manager. We had 
just gone back to the happy, friendly feeling that the club was 
started with. And it's in wonderful financial condition. 

Riess : Now, why is it in actually "wonderful" financial condition? I can 

see how you reversed a trend that had left you with sixty dollars at 
one time. 

Smith: The club was renovated with money to make it earthquake proof you 

know, the earthquake money that was spread all over the campus. And 
we got a beautiful donation from a Mrs. Mel, Cora Mel. She was an 
old Berkeley resident. She was very interested musically. Every 
concert I went to, we always saw Mrs. Mel. 

She gave $25,000 for improvements, special things to make the 
rooms more livable. They've at last come to appreciate oriental rugs, 
You see, a daughter of one of the first professors of agriculture, 
Mr. Hilgard, Alice Rose Hilgard, left all of her oriental rugs to 
the club. They were just stuck in the closet. But being a hobby, 
why, I got other people interested, and now I think the club looks 
the way it should, and the friendly atmosphere is wonderful, and 
the food is good. Mrs. Rockwell had the foresight to grab the cook 
up at Cowell Hospital. When the cook at Cowell resigned, Mrs. 
Rockwell immediately said how desirable we were. 


6) The Club as a Forum 

Riess: As I read histories of the club over the years, I saw that periodically 
there would be an effort to make the club a place where women's issues 
would be discussed. 

Smith: Yes. Well, that was Miss Stebbins' original thing to start out: to 
give women academic recognition. And also to make it a home for the 
foreign scholars who come over to this country. I have a friend who 
is at the University of Upsala, and she is Finnish. She has had 
three Guggenheim fellowships. She stayed at the club. Many people 
that come over stay at the club, all the people that get foreign 

Riess: I noticed that. I noticed that one of the committees I think it was 
in the early sixties was called the Professional Advancement 

Smith: Yes. Anna Espenshade was chairman, I think. 
Riess: Can you say anything about that? 

Smith: Well, it is rumored that at a meeting of the Academic Senate ages 
and ages ago one member said in plain English, out loud, that they 
didn't want women. They would prefer men. 

Riess: The Professional Advancement Committee seemed to be looking into 

women's salaries; they wanted to know whether this year we had more 
women than we had last year. Yet, at the same time, the tone was 
that even if we found out, we have no power to recommend anyway. 

Smith: Yes. Or to be listened to. And there had been, over the years, I 

think three different committees for advancement of women in academic 
fields. Every one of them has petered out just like that. 

I should think not until this last I don't knov who appointed 
this last one, whether it was Saxon or whether it was Heyman. But 
it's a committee of about five years this last one is the only one 
in my fifty years of knowledge that has published a certain definite 

Riess: It's probably because they were required by the government, in order 
to get money, to come up with the information. 

Smith: That could be, that could very well be. 

Riess : How about having an academic atmosphere insofar as having women talk 
about research they were doing? Was there an effort to have evening 
talks that were educational, or lunchtime talks in those days? 


Smith: I don't think they would draw very much. Marian Diamond, who was 
very enterprising, furnished slides of some of her research. The 
audience was very small. On the contrary, a long time ago, when 
Mary Ann Johnson was president, and I had something to do with the 
ceremonies, we had Hope Gladding give slides of the English country 
houses. And the place was packed! So I don't know whether that 
would attract people now or not. 

Riess: Do you have the feeling that the Men's Faculty Club is really a 
lively institution itself? 

Smith: I am in no position to say anything, because all the men I knew in 
The Faculty Club are not there anymore. 

Riess : Do you think it had a real heyday? 

Smith: Yes. Its opinions held an important place on the campus. I don't 

think the measure of the present faculty is anywhere near what it was 
with all of the people that we used to have. 

Riess: You mean, the measure of active members? 
Smith: Yes. 

Riess: That's exactly what I was trying to find out: as a body, whether it 
had an opinion that was listened to. 

Smith: I shouldn't express any opinion, because I'm not on the campus anymore; 
I've avoided all campus gossip. 

Riess: I'm talking about when you were. 

Smith: Yes. When I was, people like [George D. ] Louderback, and what was 
the chemistry man? 

Riess: Lewis? 

Smith: Yes, old G.N. Lewis, and so on. All my friends [Joel] Hildebrand 

and lots of other people of the same caliber, they really had a place. 

Riess: That reminds me to ask you whether the Women's Faculty Club was 

particularly buzzing during the loyalty oath years. Around those 
issues, what happened at the club? 

Smith: Nothing much. 

Riess: The club doesn't take stands? 

Smith: No. 


Riess: As a Board of Directors, you don't take a stand? 
Smith: No. 

Riess: Have there ever been Boards of Directors that have tended to be more 

Smith: No, I don't think so. I think any Board of Directors at that club is 
decidedly a-political. I'm a-political. 

Riess: Okay. Well, I think we've done a good job. 

Smith: To me, that was a rather interesting chronology. 

Riess: Very. And particularly since it's such a happy outcome. 

Smith: Yes. Usually [pause] I wouldn't wish the personal element that I 
say what happened to me or what 1^ did, emphasized, please. 

Riess: I certainly understand. 

Smith: When I was doing this, I also reviewed the political situation of the 

Riess: You mean when you were preparing this? 

Smith: Yes. I was thinking about the way in which the university had 

proceeded, say, from six campuses to eight when I left, nine now, 
and the presidents. It was really very interesting. 

I also prepared a clear account of the history of procedures at 
the university, which I want to give to you. [deposited in University 
Archives, The Bancroft Library.] 

7) Personal Background and Education 

Riess: Despite your wish to omit the personal pronoun, "I," would you tell 
us where you were born, and educated? 

Smith: I was born in Northampton, Massachusetts, of the famous Smiths. 

There, if you go to Northampton, every one out of four or five people 
is a Smith. 

Riess: And were you really from a famous Smith? 



Riess ; 

Riess : 

Riess : 
Riess ; 

Well, if you want to call Aunt Sophia famous, I suppose yes. We 
were the poor church mouse of the family. Aunt Sophia founded 
Smith College out of pique, because Andrew Vassar had established 
Vassar at Poughkeepsie. So she was very put out. She insisted that 
he was "no thing but a beer merchant." I always thought that that was 
simply scandal or spite at him. But it wasn't, he actually did 
manufacture beer in puritan New England, and that was the lowest thing 
you could do, so of course he was looked down on. 

Aunt Sophia was a very vain old lady, deaf as a post. She 
couldn't hear what was said, she didn f t read lips, and she wouldn't 
use her hearing aid, so she said the most malapropos things, 
thinking that she was right up to date. As a very small child I can 
still remember the members of the family making fun of all her 
malapropos remarks. If you want to know the date, it was December 
18, 1886. 

I'd say that was a very, very auspicious beginning. 

I think if it weren't for the fact that I have to wear my glasses 
all the time, I'd still be skiing yet. I'm a ski maniac! 

Did you go to private schools? 

No, I went to public schools. They had a very fine high school in 
Springfield, Massachusetts. When I see some of the stuff that the 
kids have now in college, why, that's what I had in high school! 

I went to Mount Holyoke College. My paternal grandfather's 
cousin was Sophia Smith. My maternal grandfather's second cousin was 
Mary Lyon, who founded Mount Holyoke. I went to Mount Holyoke for 
two reasons: my mother had gone there, and also it was very much 
cheaper. My father came to [financial] grief in my college career. 
I was having a wonderful time. I was raked out of college in the 
middle of my junior year. So I have no B.A. whatsoever. 

Are you an oldest child? 

Yes. I have two sisters. They were both born in Northampton. 

When you were pulled out of college, you went to work? 

No, I went to what is now a state university, and received a teacher's 
certificate, and squabbled with keeping ahead of the forty little 
devils out in front. I had a country school, which was very 
interesting. Then, when I was studying music, I substituted in 
Berkeley and in Oakland, but Berkeley mainly, and I filled out a term 
for quite a period for one of the toughest schools in Oakland. They 
had run a man out, so I came up against them the first day in there. 
But I pulled no punches, and I said [shouts], "Hey there, what do you 
mean by that?" That was the way to talk to them. I ended being very 


Riess : Why were you out here? 

Smith: My father saw a business opportunity out here, some kind of 
commission, and came out here and it was very successful. 

I think that everyone who comes direct from the East out here 
finds it oh, so crude, and they just hate it. I just detested the 
courses that I had in education. 

I substituted, as I say, and I finished out nearly half a year 
in that tough school. That gave me something wherewith to eat. 
Then I did music for about, oh, maybe six or ten years, somewhere 
around there. 

Riess: Where were you studying music? 

Smith: With a symphony man over in San Francisco. 

Riess: You were studying an instrument? 

Smith: Yes, cello. It's the most beautiful instrument in the world. 

Riess: Were you intending to be a concert cellist? 

Smith: No, 1 did a great deal of orchestra work, and string quartets. I 
played wherever I could rake in any money. 

Riess: Any of the others go on to greater glory? 

Smith: Yes, I think the violinist pursued it, but I don't know what she did 
afterwards, when we broke up. The piano player was a mature person 
who had played with the San Jose Symphony. So she had already had 
her glory. Music became very dull at that time, and the only thing 
that I could get was a vaudeville engagement, and it didn't appeal 
to me very much. 

I heard that there was a vacancy at the university here, in 
extension, so I applied. That position was filled, but the person 
in charge told me that the accounting department was looking for 
someone. I had taken a great deal of math in college to avoid 
physics and chemistry. (Only when I made my darkroom did I wish 
that I'd had physics and chemistry!) So I came up to the university, 
and I was going to stay six months, because I would not go home my 
family lived in Chico and you have to eat. I've discovered that 
seven glasses of water will keep you from being hungry a half an 
hour, [laughs] My complexion was never better! [laughs] 

Riess: Where were you living? 

Smith: On Bancroft Way, in one of the houses that has long since been torn 


8) Thirty-six Years at the University 

Riess: You got a job in accounting at the University. 
Smith: Yes. I began thirty-six and a half years of service. 

The university was at that time making claims, state claims for 
reimbursement. Then I got put in charge of the salary rolls, and 
the payroll, and the keeping of the budget for the different accounts 
for the different departments. 

At that time there were only six stations. There was Berkeley 
you see, Los Angeles wasn't Davis, Riverside, those were the three 
big ones. Then there was La Jolla, which was set up by Ellen Scripps. 
La Jolla, Mount Hamilton, and one more. 

Riess: Who were you working for when you were working in the accounting 


Smith: The accountant at that time was Mr. Henry Harshaw Benedict. He had 
a mania, in which I was trained, and have since taken on, that 
everything you put out must be dated, and it must be signed, and it 
must have a clear title, three things that are absolutely vital to 
anything you do. 

Riess: When you started out, were you just one of the girls, or did you 
occupy a position of some importance? 

Smith: At that time it wasn't of particular importance, but I had quite an 
interview with the accountant. He thought with the amount of 
mathematics that I had had that he would best place me in the making 
of these state claims, submitting of these state claims. Then from 
that, it naturally led to the person who got up the salary roll, as 
we called it at that time. She got married, so I just naturally fell 
into that . 

I came maybe ten days or two weeks after Mr. [Robert Gordon] 
Sproul was first appointed assistant comptroller. Then he was 
appointed comptroller, and I had a great deal to do with him. When 
he became president, he took two people: one was Miss [Agnes] Robb, 
and the other one was me, from the accounting department to the 
president's office, where I stayed for some thirty years. 

After that time, the IBM was just beginning to take over account 
ing. I was beguiled by the promise of a card punch all my own, and a 
machine that runs it, a recording machine, all my own. So I got a 
staff of unexcelled people, and proceeded to do that. The biggest 
service I think that I rendered the University in all those years of 
service was the putting of the budget on the IBM after the IBM 
specialist said it couldn't be done. I knew it could be done. It 
took me about three months of overtime. 


Smith: Before that, all the statistics on what we'd call the exchange 

universities, Harvard and Cornell and Michigan and Minnesota and 
Columbia and Chicago, statistics on salary, teaching load, we would 
grind it out on one of the Marchand calculators. I could see that 
if we put the budget on the IBM, it would be nothing but duck soup 
to just run the cards through. 

The accountant [Olaf Lundberg] didn't include me in the interview 
with the IBM specialist. He was sure that he knew all the work, so 
it wasn't necessary at all. Well, the IBM people said there were 
just too many exceptions, it just couldn't be done, but I went to 
Lundberg and I said, "What about my doing it on my own, just to prove 
it?" He said, if I could, go ahead. So I took the cards and I 
marked them myself, and I devised a system for the exceptions, which 
you can always deal with, and there we are. 

Riess: Was it unusual to have a woman in the position that you occupied? 

Smith: Yes. 

Riess: And you had to do an awful lot of asserting yourself over the years. 

Smith: Quite a bit. And if you assert yourself too much, it's bad. If you 
don't assert yourself, you'll be nowhere, you'll be trampled on. 
So to steer a diplomatic career is quite something. Let me say that 
I think the very best way to turn a reasonable, ordinary person and 
to make them very tough is to be a woman in a man's job. You have 
to be twice as good; you work ten times as hard; you have to be 
terribly conscientious, and maybe you'll get half of what the men 
will get for a mediocre job. 

Well, after I got budget off my neck, I overheard two people 
talking and I guess I had said that maybe they should use up their 
pencil ends, or something like that. But they were discussing me, 
and the fiat that I had set forth. One of them said, "Well, I'm not 
going in there to argue with that tough old bird." (But that's what 
you had to be.) I thought for quite a while; they weren't going 
away, so I might as well face it. I went out, and said, "Well, what 
have you got against a tough old bird?" I put it to them what they 
would have done under the circumstances, and we were the best of 
friends ever after. 

You know, all things that you've done in the past build up to 
present crises that you may meet. Everything that I've done like 
working in the printing shop gave me a knowledge of the process in 
printing the budget. Dealing with the professors, the chairmen of 
the departments and so on, gave me an insight about dealing with the 
administrators of our retirement fund. 


9) Interests in Printing, Writing, and Skiing 

Riess: At what time in your history were you working in the printing shop? 

Smith: That was several years Before I began either my writing career or my 
music career. I guess it was after I decided I wasn't cut out for a 

Riess: Was that after you decided you weren't cut out to be a teacher? 

Smith: Yes, I decided it was far too strenuous. I could make them learn, 
but it took too much out of me. 

Riess: Then where were you a reporter? 

Smith: On the Sacramento Bee. Then I went up to Seattle to work on the 

Seattle Post-Intelligencer. But I didn't like being a reporter for 
that. Then I came upon this beautiful printing shop that printed 
scientific treatises. Oh, it was the most interesting thing, I 
hated to give it up, but I wanted to see some of the rest of my life. 

Riess: You mean, the work is so close? 

Smith: No, it was the glare on the proof paper. Proof paper is a cheap 

grade of paper that is highly glazed to take the ink, very easy to 
print on. It was the glare of the light on that that did not agree 
with me. 

Riess: You made a lot of big changes in your life. May I ask if there were 
any men in your life at that point? 

Smith: Oh, no. I was just writing. 
Riess: You just didn't have time for them? 

Smith: Well, I nearly got married to go to Alaska with a ranger. But I 
decided no, I don't want that. 

Riess: When did you say you started skiing? 

Smith: When I began skiing? Well, I'm crazy about mountains, and that kind 
of life. 

When I lived in the Cascades, when I was depending on the 
magazines for my sustenance, it was necessary to go down to the mine 
and get provisions, and it was seven or nine miles down, and eleven 
to fifteen back, depending. So we went down on skis. My father had 


Smith: given me his big Colt .44 Smith and Wesson, it was. I wore it 

under my coat. If one of the mine men started to get fresh, all I 
did was just put my hand in my pocket, and that brought out the butt 
of the big .44. Nobody ever tackled me after that, [laughter] 

Where I was first skiing was with a bunch of friends in Yosemite, 
either over Christmas or New Year's, and one of the fellows borrowed 
the ranger's skis. They, of course, had bindings. We went up to 
skate, not to ski, but he got these, and I discovered that you could 
steer them! 

Later I ran into Joel Hildebrand, being in the Sierra Club, and 
I have been a lost soul ever since. I've skied for thirty-five years, 
and I've had five accidents, every one of them my own fault. One 
time, my last one, I was showing off. There were a bunch of fellows 
down there, and of course I was showing what a big skier I was. I 
hit soft snow, and not having glasses on if I'd had glasses on, I 
would have known what to do but not having glasses on, if you don't 
prepare for it, it's fatal. That was my last broken leg. I've had 
three broken legs. And I'd rather have any number of broken legs 
or broken arms or anything, rather than anything happen to your 
ribs. Your ribs are awful. I've had accidents to my ribs, on dry 
land, terra firma, not on skiing, and you can't take a deep breath, 
you mustn't cough, and you certainly cannot sneeze without the most 
extreme agony. 

Riess: Were you doing your skiing with a Sierra Club group? 

Smith: No, although I'm a life member. But all my friends are Sierra Club, 
and I want to absolutely get away from people; and the mountains 
are the best place to do it. So I've gone on twenty pack trips. I 
can handle three mules all by myself, and rope them and pack them. 

Riess : You mean you packed into high country? 

Smith: Yes, I like the very high country, the Whitney country. We went in 

a great many times from Mineral King. And as fond as I am of skiing, 
I did everything I could to help it not be made one of Walt Disney's 
ski things. 

Riess: Well, that introduces you beautifully, a brief but sensational 

account! [Miss Smith, editing the manuscript, called this section 
"unwontedly garrulous," but despite her objections, it is included. 

Smith: Yes, I think quite thoroughly. I have an awful temper, which I have 
at last learned to control. And I like to live in peace and harmony. 

Transcriber: Matt Schneider 
Final Typist: Nicole Bouche 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Margaret Murdock 

1) The Beginnings 29 

2) The Building 31 

3) Club Activities, Early 32 

4) Furnishings 34 

5) Residents and the Dining Service 36 

6) The Issue of Merger 38 

7) Personal History 40 

8) Dean Stebbins; The Mothers and Daughters 43 

9) Credentials Counsellor 46 

10) Comments on Club Membership 48 

11) Gifts and Friends 53 

12) Loyalty Oath, and War 56 

13) Margaret Murdock, and Music 58 

14) The Parties 60 

Margaret Murdock, Administrative Assistant Department of 
Education, Office Manager, Women's Faculty Club, and 
Chimesmis tress. Plaque is inscribed: "This clavier is 
dedicated to Margaret E. Murdock, Campanile Bell Player 
since 1923." 

Photographed in 1980 


Margaret Murdock 

Interview 1: August 26, 1981 

Interviewed at Miss Murdock 's home 

1) The Beginnings 

Riess: When did you become a member of the Women's Faculty Club, and what 
was your position on campus? 

Murdock: I worked in the office of the dean of women, who was Lucy Ward 

Stebbins, and I was aware of the club even before I became a member. 
The first members were all academic faculty people, including 
Miss Stebbins and Dr. Jessica Peixotto and Agnes Fay Morgan, and 
Barbara Armstrong of law, and Miss Coulter of the library. It was 
a whole group of people with academic status. It was not until 
after the club was incorporated by those people that they invited 
some of the administrative people to become members. I was in 
that group of staff people who were next to the founders in status 
of membership. 

Riess: Some administrative people were invited, but others weren't? 

Murdock: They did take the upper levels, what would be the administrative 
assistants rather than the clerks and typists. And of course, at 
that time, it was for women. Now the members include quite a few 
men, just as the men's club has women members, which would have been 
quite impossible at that time. In fact, there wouldn't have been a 
Women's Faculty Club if the men had been a little more cordial to 
even opening the hospitality of their clubhouse to women. 

Riess: Josephine Miles said that that group of women were the bluestockings. 
What was your sense of those early faculty women? 

Murdock: Dr. Peixotto was one of the early Ph.D. 's from this campus, a very 
brilliant economist. In those days there wasn't a Department of 
Social Welfare, and sociology as such was included in economics, 
because economics is the foundation for sociology in a sense. 
Dr. Peixotto and Lucy Stebbins, who graduated from Radcliffe and was 
a social worker in New England before she was invited to come to be 
assistant to the dean of women and shortly after that the dean, were 
typical of that scholarly group of early professors on the campus. 


Murdock: Dr. Agnes Fay Morgan was probably the most distinguished 

academically, because while she was attached to what was called 
home economics at that time, she was a chemist and a nutritionist 
of distinction. Some of the other members, as Josephine told you, 
seemed to be of the bluestocking class. 

Perhaps World War I had something to do with the fact that 
women had status not in all departments: history and English, 
both with the British tradition, were willing to give them graduate 
work and let them get their doctor's degrees, but not give them 
campus positions. But economics had several, and of course the 
language departments had some. Mathematics had some excellent women 
scholars, including Sophie Levy and Miss Pauline Sperry. Miss Tabor 
was in German. The Women's Faculty Club profited by the fact that 
the Sperry-Tabor pair were economists of sorts, too; they handled 
the finances that were done most successfully, and were responsible 
for the short time before our club was all ours and the mortgage 
cleared. So we were fortunate to have that group of scholars. 
The Library School and the University Library provided the club with 
several others: Miss Coulter and her sister and Miss Nella Martin 
and several others were original members. 

Riess: What does that expression, bluestocking, mean? 

Murdock: That's a British term for a woman who was scholarly. I don't know 
why the stockings were blue, but it's an expression for people that 
were academically renowned, but not necessarily socially acceptable 
because of it. At any rate, it's a good term for a general 
description of the founders. 

Riess: Why did they need to band together? 

Murdock: I think they were friendly because of their scholarly interests. 

I think in a sense, the building of the clubhouse was a factor due 
to their campus position of second-class citizens, as it were. The 
Faculty Club was definitely for men; the women were allowed to use 
one of the corner dinner rooms, the little north dining room, and 
the so-called powder room, where the student waitresses left all 
their books and paraphernalia. It was not a gracious place to 
entertain visiting faculty women. I think that they felt that they 
wanted their own dignity and their own campus status, and a clubhouse 
of their own would accomplish that. 

Riess: And a club, per se, was a more important thing then, I gather. 

Murdock: I think probably so. About the same time, the College Women's Club 
and the Women's City Club in Berkeley all were founded. Several of 
the clubs changed and have become co-educational. Even the Women's 
Faculty Club is somewhat so. But at least it hasn't ever folded up, 
and has represented the fact that women can be good business managers 
and maintain something of that sort. 


Rless: What I have gathered is that the first thing they [founders] did was 

create The Building Committee, and I'm wondering what that committee's 
relationship was to the club as it developed simultaneously. Was 
the committee always the seat of power? Or did it answer to the 

Murdock: There was a board of directors, and the Building Committee was part 
of it. For instance, when Miss [Hope] Gladding was doing the 
furnishing, she'd go to the Building Committee for funds for 
purchasing. But the whole board got practically the same people to 
handle a mixture of things. I'd say that of course, as anybody 
would agree, Lucy Stebbins was the founder of the founders, and 
would come through anonymously with financial support when needed. 

Riess : From her own resources? 
Murdock: Yes. 

2) The Building 

Riess: Do you remember anything of building the club, and of John Galen 

Murdock: Yes, I do, because my first job on the campus, as I said, was in the 
dean of women's office, so I was in on the early days of the 
planning and the selecting of the architect, and the ideas of 
grandeur that they had, which would have included a fireplace in 
every room, with a very fancy concrete structure. I was in Miss 
Stebbins 1 office when the Building Committee members, Dr. Morgan 
and Miss Coulter among others, came back from the city. The lowest 
bid had been three times as much as they expected to have to pay for 
the building. [brief tape interruption] 

Rless: You said that the lowest bid came in three times what they expected 
to pay. Were there other arcnitects consulted? 

Murdock: I don't know who the other competitors were, but they wanted to 

have Mr. Howard do it. Actually, I'm wrong, it wasn't a competition. 
It was the bids for the cost of building the club. But we had 
delusions of grandeur, the club did, and had to change a little bit- 
pull in our horns! 

Riess: The original drawings appeared to be of a stucco-clad building. 


Murdock: I have no regrets; I think the shingles are attractive. And I 

think Howard needs to be appreciated on the range of things that 
he could adapt to. It was nice to know that while buildings like 
the more classical ones on the campus represented his Beaux Arts 
scholarship, that he could make a lovely shingled building that's 
worn so well and has been so efficient and functional. 

Riess: Yes, that's a good point. So then finally 

Murdock: Finally they had to give up the tiled roof and stucco and have the 

shingled building, which is much more characteristic of a California 

Riess: I wonder if Julia Morgan was in the running for architect. 

Murdock: I don't think so. I'm surprised she wasn't, because, of course, 
she did beautiful buildings, and was a woman, and it would have 
seemed more logical to have had her. In fact, some people thought 
that she did do the building.* Howard was the university architect, 
and it was probably the proper thing to maybe it was required, I'm 
not sure about that. But at any rate, it didn't occur to me that 
that was a choice. It could have been, I suppose. 

3) Club Activities, Early 



What were those early days of the club like? 

What did you do as a 

If you have access to the archives, if they haven't disappeared, you 
ought to find little notices which probably Josephine Smith printed, 
of a good many of the little social parties. Not only Christmas 
parties, but ones during the year in which we would have a costume 
party, or a meeting for new members, or our annual meeting. They 
never were social to the extent that other women's clubs were 
because they were all busy, professional people, and they didn't 
join it just to play bridge and talk about children and houses. 

Riess: Were there speakers that would come to the meetings? 

*There is correspondence in the WFC files with Julia Morgan, who 
consulted with the club on the advisability of earthquake insurance 
in 1927. [SBR] 


Murdock: We'd have speakers at meetings. We didn't have them as they now 
have occasionally "Lunch and Learns," but we did have occasional 
speakers. There was a smaller group of what you might say the 
bluestockings that had their more scholarly gatherings. We called 
them the "Learned Ladies." 

But the club was not entirely social, as many clubs are. It 
didn't keep going because people did play bridge; it kept going 
because it housed visitors. It did give and always has given good 
food, well served, which appealed to the membership. And a good 
many faculty people, of course, even with their own homes, liked to 
have dinner out. And the lunch was always popular. 

Actually, the club membership as a whole partially supported 
the residents because they lived there quite frugally. I don't 
think what they paid in rent and paid for their meals really covered 
their total expenses adequately, so some of the people who didn't 
use the club regularly helped contribute through their memberships. 

Riess: Off and on in those early years, were there attempts made to do more 
reading of scholarly papers among the women, and considering of 
the role of women? 

Murdock: The "Learned Ladies" read papers. But they were not belligerently 
feminist in that sense. The academic ones were pretty well 
established and not feeling put out by lack of recognition. And 
the administrators at that time actually there was a group of them 
that behind the scenes were the stable staff of the faculty. Each 
division, like the graduate division or the extension, the different 
departments, had some woman who really, behind the scenes, managed 
things. I guess probably it's still true in a good many departments. 
I don't think that any of them felt put upon or abused. They had 
their status; the deans could come and go, but the administrative 
assistants, or secretaries as they were called then, kept a certain 
amount of stability with the structure of the administration. 

Riess: That's right. Often they have a lot of power. 

Murdock: Yes, it was behind-the-scenes power that they had. I guess they 
were aware of it and felt the responsibility of their positions. 

Riess: Then, for those people, was it a place where they could come together 
to talk about the business of their on-campus jobs, for instance? 

Murdock: It could be. I don't know that they did particularly. Some, like 
Josephine Smith, liked to come and would hide herself behind a 
magazine because it was a place for peace and quiet where she 
wouldn't be disturbed by talking shop. So it was understood that 
if you wanted to get away from shop at noontime, that was your 


Rless: Did the academics automatically join? 


Riess : 


No, there are always some women on the campus who saw no need for 
the club and didn't join. It wasn't held against them. You joined 
if you wanted to. And if you were invited and didn't join, that 
was your privilege. 

I wonder if that represents a point of view of seeing no real need 
for the club. 

I think probably so. There might have been some that would have 
joined if it were men and women, but saw no particular need for a 
separate women's club. I think, as a whole, the academic women on 
the campus supported the club, but there were always some that 
didn't choose to and that was their perogative. 

4) Furnishings 

Riess: I got us off the subject, and I think it would be a great mistake if 

you didn't say something for the record about the furnishing of the 

club and Hope Cladding's role. So let's get back to the point where 
we have a clubhouse built. 

Murdock: The clubhouse was finished just about the right time to take the 
refugees from the Berkeley fire. It was in '23 that the club 
opened, in September, so it needed to be furnished pretty much in a 
hurry. Hope Gladding, as a member of the home economics department, 
as it was then called, was asked to select furnishings, but without 
very adequate funds for it. So she had to ask the board for money 
for bureaus for the bedrooms. She designed the tables and chairs 
for the dining room and selected the living room furniture, which 
now includes pieces that were gifts. [The oak dining room tables, 
with pedestal bases, were still there in 1982, although refinished 
to a lighter color. SBR] 

Many of the real treasures of the early days were the ones that 
she bought from shops that had oriental material that was available, 
and wouldn't be available now they really brought in treasures 
from the Orient. The club profited by the fact that at that time 
things like the collapsible desk in the library and one of the 
chests in the living room were just available in antique shops, and 
she picked them. 

Riess: In Chinatown? 

Murdock: No, most of the things that she bought were from Mrs. Churchill and 
Mrs. Sanderson, who had shops in Berkeley, who imported oriental 
things . 


Riess: I've heard the name Imogen Sanderson. 

Murdock: Yes, right. 

Riess: And Churchill? 

Murdock: Also was somebody that had oriental things. 

But many of the things she designed or had made. The little 
bureaus that we had came from Gorman's [Berkeley unfinished furniture 
store] , and just were painted bright colors to look cheerful and 
embellish the bedrooms. 

Riess: Gorman's is an institution! 

Murdock: Gorman's is an institution that for a long time has contributed its 
share of equipment. 

Riess: I haven't seen the sleigh-beds. 

Murdock: They were very pretty. Sleigh-beds have curved ends and are graceful, 
and they were very comfortable. But the very fact that they had 
these curved ends made them not as sturdy as standard beds. And 
they were outsized [undersized] so that you couldn't get new 
mattresses for them. So little by little they got replaced. But 
I'm sure some of them are floating around, because some of the people 
that loved them bought them when the club was disposing of them. I 
think there may be a couple of them still around. I rather think 
the last time I looked in the upstairs lounge there was a sleigh-bed 

Riess: After John Galen Howard designed the building, did he come back and 
spend time? 

Murdock: Not particularly. I mean, I think he was pleased with the club. I 
suppose he was disappointed that the original plans couldn't be 
carried out, but after all, while his reputation was for more solid 
marble and granite, and later concrete, I think that he did very 
well with what he had to. 

Riess: There was a comment that the Spanish-style interior, white walls, 
dark trim, and wrought iron, was "as if they had been recommended 
by some banker as a condition for a collateral loan." 

Murdock: I can't answer that, what banker could have been involved in that. 
Riess: Or whether that was literally true. 


Murdock: I think that may be a little imaginative. I could ask Hope, but 

I don't think she'd be quite sure about that. She wasn't in on the 
original financing of the club, but was there in time enough 
to do a good deal of the furnishing. It was the style at that time, 
and you didn't have to match your outside and your inside entirely. 

Riess: Speaking of the style inside, I wanted to find out from you about 
the room people were taken to see because it had [laughing] the 
red bed? 

Murdock: The early furniture was just the unpainted variety, and I think it 
was Hope Gladding who had an eye for color and thought it would be 
nice to have rooms with different atmospheres. I had a green room, 
but there were pale blue ones, and of course there was a red one. 
Sometimes it went with whatever rug happened to be there, but it was 
never a dull similarity of sort of boarding house style. They all 
had a little spirit to them. 

5) Residents and the Dining Service 

Murdock: The club over its years of course, one of its excellent functions 
was housing and caring for visiting scholars. We had wonderful 
people living in the club in my days of residence who were on the 
faculty of Vassar, of Wellesley, or other colleges, who had 
sabbaticals and came out and appreciated the club, as well as 
Berkeley, and gave it, you might say, a somewhat international 

The early days had quite a few campus people that were more or 
less permanent residents. Then they made a regulation that people 
who retired say at the age of sixty-five couldn't remain at the 
club: they didn't want it to become an old ladies home. There was 
a chance that people who retired would want to stay in the clubs 
indefinitely. There were a couple of old boys that did at The 
Faculty Club. 

It wasn't retroactive, so we did have two or three people who 
continued on at the club after their retirement. But it was 
supposed to be as a residence for people actively connected with the 
university or visiting the university. The regulation was that 
after people reached sixty-five or so, they could remain there only 
for a couple of years; they didn't want to have them on into their 
seventies, and at that time, I think Miss [May] Dornin and Lucille 
Czarnowski were about the only residents that would fit into the 
pattern of perpetuity. It was all right in that case because they 
had been there before the rule was made, but May didn't really want 
to, and is very comfortably off over at the Sequoias [retirement 
apartments in San Francisco], but the idea was that she didn't have 
to go. She could have stayed on indefinitely. 



Riess : 
Riess : 





Now, it's even more a transient entity, because it can fill up 
pretty well with visiting people, and not too many Berkeley people 
want to live in a residence place of that sort. The people that 
come quite a few faculty stayed there while they were looking for 
homes and getting established, and then moved to their own domiciles 
and continued their active interest in the club, but as, you might 
say, non-resident members. 

Was that stimulating, to have the transients? 
Oh, very definitely so! 
They really interacted? 

They interacted, and I think the club breakfast table, which had 
about twenty people, was always a discussion group. That included, 
of course, visitors and residents, and the local people, and people 
with a great many different points of view: scholars in the science 
field, and librarians, and people in the arts. So it was always 
a nice melting pot. 

In all those years between 1923, let's say, and 1967, was the club 

I would say so, yes. I feel like a thirty-third degree Mason 
because, having been in Miss Stebbins's office before the club 
started, and having been a resident, and having been an officer one 
time and another on boards and committees, and then having worked 
in the club office for quite a period after I retired from my 
campus job, I sort of feel as though I've watched the club over a 
fairly long period. Though I would say that my active participation 
perhaps didn't include being in the heart of the merger concern. 

During what period were you a resident? 

From '23 until '40. I lived in the clubhouse from almost its start 
until I came to share Miss Cladding's house. So 1 did watch it from 
the inside. 

Thac is interesting, 

The club breakfast table was one large groaning 

I think it sometimes groaned if they got into too heavy arguments. 
People could make breakfast upstairs. Each floor had a little gas 
stove and the equipment with which people could have a cup of coffee 
and a piece of toast. But most of the residents had their breakfasts 
downstairs. Now, breakfast is included in being there, which is to 
discourage them using upstairs, I guess. 



When you said that the residents were somewhat supported by the 
club, I didn't realize you were speaking from a resident's point of 

Murdock: I felt that they did more for us than we did for them. 

The residents didn't always dine at the club. One of the 
reasons that finally the three meals deal was abandoned was that 
in my days in the office, we had the dinners going, but you didn't 
know whether you were going to have five or fifty in the dining 
room. And union help is costly. By the time you have your cook 
and your salad girl and your second cook and a eight-hour shift so 
that they wouldn't be there for breakfast through dinner, the 
expense of a meal was just unreasonable. You couldn't charge people 
enough to pay for that amount of help without any assurance that 
you were going to have a given number of people eating there. Since 
the house never had more than two dozen residents I mean, there 
were less than twenty-four rooms even if everybody there ate 
dinner, you still have to count on the town's members to support 
the dining room. And it never really worked to that extent. 

Riess: So the dinner-dining service then 
Murdock: had to fold up.* 

6) The Issue of Merger 

Riess: When were you in the office? I don't think I have those dates down. 

Murdock: I don't know. In the fifties and early sixties, because it was 

after I had retired and before the last chapters of the merger. I 
was still there when they were working on that, and the book of 
pictures was being provided. But my closer association with the 
office was probably in the forties and fifties, after I'd moved up 
here with Hope, and wasn't living at the club, but was still 
working in the office and keeping in touch with things that way. 

Riess: That was not a volunteer position? 

Murdock: No. All the earlier being on the board were volunteer, but when I 
was in the office, it was as office manager, and not a large salary, 
but at least sometimes half-time pay for full-time work. 

*"[The WFC stopped serving dinners Nov. 1, 1971, and stopped serving 
lunches Jan. 3, 1972. SBR] 


Riess: In your long association with the club, before 1967, was a 

cooperative arrangement with The Faculty Club ever a point of 
discussion in those years? 

Murdock: Over the years, I think it wasn't. I think that they worked 

mutually in a friendly manner, but there wasn't any thought of 
swallowing the women's club and turning the space into a parking 
lot. It was just two clubs, and they each had their function, and 
people could interchange meals, so that the faculty wives, the 
ladies, could always use the club, sign chits by way of the men's 
club. Just as the women used the men's club for dinner and for 
parties and things. The exchange of club chits was on a fairly 
even basis in the days when I was in the office. We paid them as 
much as they paid us back and forth on the billings. 

Riess: But their food reputation was poor compared to yours, wasn't it? 

Murdock: Yes. But it still was a popular place to take your friends and to 
have access to. 

Riess: The Haas family gift was to be contingent on agreeing to consolidate 
management operations. Now, what is that referring to? 

Murdock: I'm sure that was one of the items of the proposed merger, I think, 
of having the dining rooms combined, which didn't really work. It 
was just about the time that I was leaving the office that they 
were really about to take over, so I got out just in time, I think, 
not to be 

Riess: Crushed. 

Murdock: Yes, crushed in that particular machine. 

I think that we have profited in our recent regeneration from 
some of those campus funds. But again, I'm not up on the financial 
benefit that might have come from campus regulations on bringing 
things up to date for handicapped people and such, and for the funds 
provided for that, which I think is the case, that the elevator, 
the ramp, were ones that were necessitated in a public building, but 
didn't fall financially on the club members. 

Riess: That's an interesting point, a good incentive, certainly, How about 
the Mel gift? I'm interested that Mel is Florence Nachtrieb Mel. 

Murdock: Yes, she was Barbara's sister, and she was very generous in her 

will to the club. She was one of the associate members because of 
her various activities. So she wasn't just the sister of a member, 
but an active supporter of the club, and very generous in her will 
in contributing to the club. 


Riess: Josephine Smith certainly was an articulate member. 

Murdock: I have great admiration for Josephine Smith. I think she's a smart 
cookie, and she does have a driving spirit. She's been most loyal 
and interested in the club, and sensitive to its needs and develop 
ment. I think we've been very fortunate to have somebody like 

Riess: Without Josephine Smith, do you think the merger would have gone 

Murdock: Possibly. I think that we owe her a great deal of appreciation for 
all of her understanding of what a tragedy it would be, although 
I guess I had an optimistic feeling that the club was going to 
survive, and was a little perplexed by some of the people of the 
club that seemed to be in favor of the merger. I'm sure they meant 
well, and they felt that there should be just one campus club, which 
has its point. But I'm so glad that we still have our separate 
entity, and that we've survived that period of stress. 

7) Personal History 

[Interview 2: December 1, 1981. Interview held at Riess home] 

Riess: Miss Murdock, because we had too little time when we first 

interviewed, I want to go back now and get more of your history, 
and elaborate on a few questions about the club. Where were you 
born, and when?* 

Murdock: I was born in San Francisco in 1894. We lived in a house built by 

the architect Ernest Coxhead, out on Scott Street near the Presidio. 
I remember watching the soldiers going off to the Philippines, 
marching along Lombard Street just below us. We went often to the 
Presidio to watch ceremonies. It was a very pleasant neighborhood. 
Of course later, it was on the outskirts of the Exposition in 1915, 
which in my day was just a kind of pond and open space. 

Riess: Were you the first owners of that Coxhead house? 

Murdock: Yes, Father had it built. Coxhead was a friend and neighbor. His 
own house was right around the corner on Green Street. I remember 
going down to see the little Coxhead children. 

*For a more comprehensive history, see Belle of the Sather Tower Bells, 
1980, 52 p., an interview with Margaret Murdock conducted by Paul 
Machlis in 1976. In The Bancroft Library, University of California, 


Riess: Your father was a printer? 

Murdock: Father was a printer, and married rather late in life. He was in 

his fifties when I was born. His wife died in 1903, leaving Father 
with three children under ten, and he well over sixty. So it was 
kind of a generation gap that made me feel that I knew a lot about 
early San Francisco, because he had been quite active, not only as 
a printer, but in church work, and to a certain extent in politics. 

Riess: After your mother's death he carried on the household? 

Murdock: Yes, we were all at home. I had a younger sister that I kept an eye 
on. I had an older brother. I think we all developed a good deal 
of independence, as you do when you have an older father who is a 
darling but not too domestically inclined. 

Riess: Did he bring his friends around? 

Murdock: Yes, and one of his closest friends was Dr. Horatio Stebbins, for 
whom he served as Sunday school superintendent under the ministry 
of his Unitarian pastor. He knew Lucy Stebbins as a little girl 
when he was a widower before he married my mother. He used to go 
to have lunch with the Stebbins family with St. Nicholas in one 
pocket and candy in the other. The children thought he was a very 
welcome visitor to the home. That really is responsible for my 
coming to the campus to work for Miss Stebbins; it was kind of all 
in the family. 

Riess: Did your father fill you early with ambitions? 

Murdock: Not particularly. I think that he thought college was for boys. 
So, my brother went right from Lowell High School to college. I 
went to the San Francisco Normal School to become a teacher, and 
did teach to earn my expenses to come to college. That was probably 
my own desire rather than family pressure. 

Riess: Where r".id your brother go to college? 
Murdock: He came to the university. 

Riess: Do you remember making that decision to go to the university or to 
normal school? 

Murdock: I do not think there was any question of my going to the university 
when I was out of high school. I just went immediately to the 
normal school and taught in San Francisco, which I enjoyed. But 
I liked the university life. When Miss Stebbins invited me to be 
the office assistant, I was glad to accept. I have never been sorry 
that I had all of these years on the campus. 


Murdock: Actually, I did not enter the university until 1916. I was a 

freshman the first year, and a senior the next one. I graduated 
in 1918 because I had accumulated some miscellaneous credits from 
the normal school and from some summer session studies over here. 
Ry majoring in economics I could kind of double up on courses. So 
I really only had two undergraduate regular years here. 

Riess: Was Miss Peixotto an inspiring teacher? 

Murdock: She was a very inspiring teacher in economics, and Miss Stebbins 
also taught courses. There was not any social welfare college at 
that time. Social economics was part of the Economics Department; 
the courses on poverty, and care and dependents and so forth, that 
would normally be in sociology or in social welfare, were all given 
under the aegis of economics. 

Riess: It sounds like it was a strong department. 

Murdock: It was a very strong department. Actually, I think I would have 
majored in English or history, but I didn't know much about 
economics and I liked English and history, so I thought I might as 
well learn something different and widen my horizons a little by 
something that just didn't come as easily as English and history 

Riess: Well, you certainly had a well established Puritan ethic there, I 
must say. 

Murdock: I expect so! [laughter] 

Riess: Did you envision yourself doing something that was more related to 

Murdock: I don't think so. I don't think I was a career aspirant particularly. 
I probably thought I would go back to teaching. I did teach a 
little while after I graduated, but was glad to return to the 
campus. I think that I felt that the responsibility of educating 
the very young was a pretty heavy responsibility. 

Riess: Where did you live when you were a student? 

Murdock: I lived in a boarding house and in a sorority. Then, briefly, my 
sister, who was younger than I, kept house. So I had a variety of 
campus experiences in different types of housing. 


8) Dean Stebbins; The Mothers and Daughters 

Riess: Then you were asked by Dean Stebbins to take the job. 

Murdock: Yes, and in those days there was a dean and an assistant dean, 

Mrs. Davidson, and one and later two office assistants that did a 
little of everything because in those days the Dean of Women's 
Office had housing, student employment, scholarships and loans and 
a great many activities that are now scattered through different 
offices all over the campus. 

Riess: Is it entirely predictable, as you look back over the picture, that 
it would be Dean Stebbins who would start the Women's Faculty Club? 

Murdock: I think she and Dr. Peixotto and Dr. Morgan and the others were all 
close friends. I think that they felt that it would be much more 
dignified to have their own club. They were not militant people, 
but they had their standards of quality. I think the position of 
dean of women made her feel that the cause of women in general, 
faculty as well as students, it was something that was part of the 

Riess: Part of her job almost. 
Murdock: I would say so, yes. 

Riess: In one of the scrapbooks that I found in the vault, it mentions a 
woman, Caroline Bates Singleton of the French Department, who 
apparently wrote a letter that got Dean Stebbins thinking about it. 
I wondered whether Caroline Singleton was somebody that we should 
get down on the record. 

Murdock: Yes, she should be. When I think of the women, I think of Miss 
Coulter and Miss Peixotto and Dr. Morgan, but I do remember that 
Miss Singleton was a leading spirit that way. She did not stay in 
the campus too long. 

I'm glad you had some of those archives , because Miss Davis kept 
really careful records of everything. A lot of the material of the 
early days, the records of meetings and so forth, tell quite a part 
of the picture. 

Riess: Oh, they are very beautifully kept records. As a matter of fact, 
I wanted to know a little bit more about Miss Davis. 


Murdock: Oh, Miss Davis was a delightful New Englander of scholarly interests, 

You asked me about the faculty women, and Sarah Davis, like 
Miss Peixotto and Miss Stebbins and several of the others, were what 
you would call devoted daughters with a capital "D." They had 
really quite wonderful mothers. I don't know who looked after which, 
whether the daughter took care of the mother or in some cases I 
think the mothers made life easier, at least in their earlier days, 
for their daughters, which would be the natural situation. 

Miss Davis and her mother both lived at the club. I remember 
her mother very well, but Miss Davis I guess she was from Wellesley; 
several of the physical education people came from Wellesley in 
those days. She was just a naturally efficient secretary to keep 
records of the club, and I'm sure of the department in a similarly 
meticulous way. 

Riess : Where did Dean Stebbins live? 

Murdock: Miss Stebbins and her mother had a delightful house on Durant, 
between College and Piedmont, belonging to the university, and 
backing up to the Hilgard house on Bancroft. It was a center for 
entertainment . 

Miss Peixotto and her mother lived at Cloyne Court, which was 
a faculty center of sorts too, in those days. Miss Davis and her 
mother were burned out and moved into the club as part of the early 
first residents. Miss Coulter and her mother and sister had an 
apartment on Euclid and Hearst and then later built a house up on 
Hawthorne Terrace. 

So they [founders] were not, except for the Davises, residents 
of the club, but lived near the club usually in something that was 
a proper place for a mother and daughter. 

Riess: That is fascinating. Let me continue down the list and then ask a 
few more questions about that. How about Miss Helen Fancher? 

Murdock: Miss Fancher lived on Durant. Miss May Lent, who was also in the 
Household Arts Department, lived at the club. Miss Fancher had a 
mother also in those days. So, I would say that the pattern of 
quite a few of those was a scholarly daughter and an admiring 
mother who was pleased that the daughter had recognition on the 
campus . 

Riess: Where were the fathers? These were all widows? 
Murdock: Yes, all the mothers were widows. 



Riess : 

Riess : 

Isn't that fascinating? Of course, Agnes Fay Morgan was Mrs. Morgan. 

Yes, she was, as I can recall, about the only one who had a husband. 
It was quite amusing: she was a chemist, rather a nutritionist, 
but her research was in chemistry, and so she usually wore a long 
smock, and when her son arrived on the scene, everybody was 
startled because nobody knew that he was on his way. 

Do you remember the sense of startled shock? 

Yes, I do, very decidedly. That kind of amusement that she could 
hide it so successfully all during her pregnancy. She was just 
Dr. Morgan doing her research. The long white apron, as it were, 
kept that a deep secret. 

Was she a spokesman, for 

dual career marriages, or anything like 


Riess : 



Riess : 

Riess : 

I do not think so. They all spoke easily, but I think the person 
that everybody preferred as a club speaker was Edith Coulter. She 
had wit and wisdom and flair for that type of thing. Miss Stebbins 
spoke well, but I think it was a little more of an effort for her. 
I think she was naturally shyer. 

Well, in terms of the dual career thing, which is certainly an 
issue these days, I wondered if you ever heard Mrs. Morgan on the 
subject of how she balanced home and family? 

No, I do not think I ever did. I saw her at the club and admired 
her, but I was not in on any discussions of double careers. 

Do you think she was a role model for students? 

Possibly so. She had a very nice little son. Mrs. Davidson also 
had a very charming son who became a doctor, but I think her 
husband died even before Charles was born. So she was one of the 
widows that made her career on thp campus. But in the other cases, 
it was the mothers that were widows. 

Miss Patterson, where did she live? 

Miss Patterson had a very attractive home, on Cedar just below 

Did she live alone? 

Yes. Oh, wait a minute. Yes, I think she did. 
but I am pretty sure that she was alone. 

She had a sister, 


Riess: Dean Stebbins's presidency of the club for all of those years, 

non-stop, was there ever any question about that? Did anyone ever 
run against her? 

Murdock: I think everybody thought she was a wonderful president. I think 

she would have been glad to have somebody else take it on. It just 
seemed to be her responsibility. 

9) Credentials Counsellor 

Rieas: You had your job as the assistant in her office, and then got into 
a different position. How did that happen, and when? 

Murdock: I don't just remember just why it happened, but I was asked to be the 
secretary to Professor Leonard in the late twenties when he was in 
the President's Office as a coordinator of junior college relation 
ships for the university, to see that the university and junior 
colleges worked together for the best interest of students, and that 
the university, among other things, in connection with staffing 
junior colleges, hunted up the best people they could find, whether 
or not they were University of California graduates. 

There was a little feeling that the placement office had the 
responsibility of placing University of California graduates only, 
that while we would be glad to staff the junior colleges with our 
own graduates, that it was our responsibility to help them search 
for the best qualified college people they could get. It was an 
office that was at first a little separate from Mrs. Cheney's 
placement office with the thought of cooperating with junior college 

Then it gradually merged. He went back to Columbia. He was in 
the Education Department in the field of higher education. He had 
this joint position as "university representative in education 
relations." After he left for Columbia, his assistant got moved 
over to handle, more or less, the college placement aspects of the 
placement office. Then that got over into advising credentialling. 
It involved the credentialling of the junior college people to 
begin with. It ended By going into all the students, sort of the 
technicalities of certification. 

I did this for so many years under the title of credentials 
counselor, but attached to the placement office. Rather loosely, 
though, because it was sort of a separate function. They had the 
products when the students got through, but I had the advising on 
the way to the certification. 




So you really did work closely with students, 
students would you be dealing with? 

About how many 

Riess : 


A lot, because you had your current crop that were finishing up, 
which might be two or three hundred. But, you had your undergraduate 
student from their freshman year on who might say, "I want to go 
into teaching." And the faculty advisor would say, "Go see Miss 
Murdock," on combination of minors that would work with majors, or 
the sequence of prerequisites, by which they could most easily get 

It was better to start in education courses as an elective in 
the junior and the senior year, but we didn't accept education 
majors. You always had your field. The idea was to see that you 
had your best campus equipment and materials to teach. If you left 
it all to the graduate years it was kind of doubling up a little bit 
too much on the prerequisites and the practice teaching itself. 

So you had your responsibility to see that they could edge in 
a course or so per semester around their academic requirements to 
facilitate finishing up easily in the fifth year. 

Did you have a very wide network, then, of people that you knew in 
the state? [telephone interruption] What kind of awareness did you 
have of all of the high schools and positions that your students 
might be guided into. How did you keep in touch? 

I suppose if you are in that sort of job in Mrs. Cheney's office, 
you get to know the schools pretty well. I don't know how it 
happened, but I was also responsible for the schedules pretty much 
of the university faculty people that went to visit schools, so you 
knew who liked to go see the little schools because he could go 
fishing on an odd day if he was up in the mountains [laughing], 
or who preferred the Catholic private schools because they fed them 
so well, and who liked visiting in the big schools in the cities. 

That type of contact that the faculty people had with the 
schools gave me insight into some of the little schools, of what 
they needed. Of course, any native Califomian who has travelled 
about a bit has a somewhat vivid picture of the types of schools and 
the adjustments that some city-born young people will have to [make] 
being up at Fort Bragg or Fort Jones or some of the very small 
areas . 

That was part of the pleasure of being in touch, and part of 
the pleasure since has been the fact that you have been acquainted 
with teachers from all over, and perhaps, at least they say, you 
did something to make it easier for them to get started. 


Riess: Oh, I should think it would be very effective, all the way around. 
Did you find yourself placing many young men as teachers? 

Murdock: Oh, yes, and quite a few that came back to the campus remembered me 
as having helped them get their first jobs, like Garff Wilson, who 
went up to Arcata and the college there, and some of the others 
that were physical education, athletes, but got into administration 
as so many of them do in time. These were ones that remembered me 
from their undergraduate days. 

10) Comments on Club Membership 

Riess: You knew so many people, from your job, and then you were active in 
the club. How active in the club were Agnes Fay Morgan, or Mary 
Patterson both from home economics? 

Murdock: I don't think either of them became very active as administration 
members of the club, as far as that is concerned. They were busy 
with their own departments, I think. Miss Patterson did a lot, when 
we had parties, in arranging costumes, if we had a costume party or 
something of that sort. She contributed from her field of interest 
rather than the general administrative side of the club. 

Riess: Talking about arranging, I wanted to ask you about Lucille Czarnovski, 

Murdock: She did beautiful flower arrangements. She loved it and she did a 
wonderful job. I think that was much appreciated as a form of 
expression. Again, she was in the field of physical education, but 
her main interest was the dance. I think she was an artist by 
temperament, and flower arrangement went in with that side of her 
interest rather than the gymnastic side of the Physical Education 

Riess: Was she Russian? 

Murdock: No, it's a Russian name, but she grew up in southern California, 
second or third generation. So the name maybe sounds more like a 
Pavlova dancer than it should, [laughter] 

One of the characters at the club in the early days was Sara 
Huntsman Sturgess , a very able person, but had her own temperament. 
I think she believed in a bit of sarcasm and fight, seeing that 
students developed strength to withstand criticism and such. Some 
students adored her and some were so afraid of her that they just 
crawled under the table. In her own philosophy she thought that was 
the way to develop their independence. Some people could take it 
and some couldn't. 


Riess: I was struck by the number of physical education teachers and 
administrators there seem to be on the roster of early Women's 

Faculty Club members . 

Murdock: Well, physical education was a required subject, so they had to 
have enough staff people to take care of all of the freshmen and 
sophomores that had to take something. The staff on the campus didn't 
get tenure; they didn't, most of them, have the academic degrees to 
start up the ladder toward full professorship, so that there were 
a good many young people coming and going that taught in the 
department and then went elsewhere. 

Riess: Has there been any racial or religious prejudice in the club over 
the years? 

Murdock: I would say none. I don't think that was because the president was 
a Unitarian and naturally broadminded in such things; it just 
happened. There weren't too many minority people that were qualified 
to be professors or even secretaries in the early days. 

We always had Chinese. We always had, if it is a question of 
denomination, a good many Jewish I mean, it wasn't all New England 
Presbyterians, as it were. It was a pretty broad religious scope. 
I don't think anybody would have been refused membership for any 
of the racial or other qualifications. 

Riess: Really, these days, everything is an issue. I wondered if there 
were such issues then. For instance, when Christmas parties came 
along, did people speak up and say, "Well, what about a Hanukkah 

Murdock: I don't think there ever was, because Miss Peixotto was Jewish, but 
I don't think that she ever felt that we should have Hanukkah 
instead of Christmas, [laughing] I think in those early days a 
great many of the university staff Dean [Charles] Lipman, Dean 
[Monroe] Deutsch were both Jewish. I think the whole feeling is 
that they were some of the best administrators we ever had, and 
nobody cared whether they went to a church or a synagogue, if they 

Riess: Yes, that is what I would expect, but I still have to ask it, 
because when you think of clubs you think of exclusiveness . 

Murdock: Yes, well, the club was founded on the campus position that if you 
were faculty, you were automatically eligible to join. If you 
didn't care to ... I'd be always, in my early days being very loyal 
to the club, surprised that some of the women in some departments 
had no interest in joining. They were just not joiners, I guess. 


Riess: But of that early list of people that were invited, some seventy-six 
faculty, and 120 associates from the community, they did get a 
remarkably high response. 

Murdock: Yes, I think they did. I think the community of women, the head 
of the YWCA, Lily Margaret Sherman, and so forth, were pleased to 
be invited, and thought that it was a privilege to share the campus 
side of things. Of course, those of us in administration were 
pleased, I think, to be included in the early days. Josephine Smith 
and some of the dean's assistants were not academic and knew it, but 
it was nice to be counted in as part of the club. 

That article that you had on the clubs in general it is 
significant that each campus had a different pattern of membership.* 
Our club distinguished between the faculty ladies and the faculty 
women. The faculty ladies were the wives: they had their organiza 
tion and were welcomed to use the Women's Faculty Club for their 
parties, which they did very amiably, but no women were eligible 
automatically because they were wives. To belong to the club you 
had to be also a faculty woman, which meant a working person more or 
less. You were taken in on your own distinction as contributing, 
rather than your husband's. 

Riess: That is interesting that those two words could be so neatly defined. 

Murdock: Well, it is kind of amusing, when it might have been just happen 
stance. It doesn't mean that women didn't consider themselves 
ladies, but they thought that their interests were not just what 
is it in German? Kinder, Kirche, Kuche, something like that. 

I noticed that in the original constitution of the club it 
said that the purpose was "to promote mutual acquaintance and 
fellowship among women who are officers of instruction and government 
of the university." Then in the sixties, the primary purpose is 
"to promote and encourage educational and professional activities 
for women associated." In other words, it seemed that what was 
happening there was that they were moving from a more social to a 
more support-oriented group, by the sixties. Do you think, in fact, 
that was so? 

Murdock: Perhaps so. It never was the sort of social center that other clubs 
were. We had parties in the early days and very gay ones, costume 
and fashion shows, and so forth. I don't think that it ever served 
as the social center. 

*The Centennial Record of the University of California, 1967, UC 
Printing Department, pp. 230-231. See Appendices. 


Murdock: People that liked to play bridge and dance and so forth did that in 
other groups. It didn't turn out to be the one social activity to 
occupy the campus community. I think that a good many of the people 
were just not interested in bridge parties and things of that sort. 
If they were, they did it through other organizations that they 
belonged to. 

Riess: The question of other organizations came up early. In the first 

couple of years there was some discussion given to joining with the 
College Women's Club, or having affiliated relations with Mills 
or Stanford. Do you remember that? 

Murdock: Not particularly. I think they were always on friendly terms with 
the other groups, but I don't think they expected to affiliate. I 
don't remember any really active discussion of mergers with the 
other clubs. 

In the early twenties I think it was quite remarkable that so 
many women's groups did build club houses and get themselves 
established. Perhaps it was an aftereffect of World War I where 
women discovered that they could manage finances and take care of 
out of home activities, but when you think that the College Women's 
Club and the Women's City Club and two or three in San Francisco of 
the same variety, all really got under way in the same period, it 
sounds as though the modern women that feel they discovered 
independence had something to learn from the early twenties. 

Riess: Do you think that the residence possibilities, that aspect, was very 
instrumental in all of this? 

Murdock: Not particularly. I think that it was fortunate for quite a lot of 
us that the club was there as a residence, but I think most of the 
academicians preferred establishing their own homes. Some of them 
did stay at the club for a year or so while they were getting 
themselves established and perhaps being sure they were on the 
tenure ladder, and then they wanted to have their own homes. 

Riess: Being sure they were one the tenure ladder, the old publish or 

Murdock: The responsibility was to establish themselves on the campus, and 
for the first year or so it was handy to be right in the middle of 
libraries and activities, the research centers of their field. But 
to have their own homes was something that most of them really 

Riess: Earlier, you mentioned that there were the academic members, the 

administrative, and the faculty wives. Have wives continued to be 
asked to join? How has that been handled? 


Murdock: I think that memberships are acted upon, and any woman in the 

community of activity could be either proposed by somebody else, or 
could perhaps hint to somebody that she'd like to join, and would be 
acted upon. That includes faculty wives, if they are doing something 
besides just being a faculty wife. There have always been quite a 
few that have been quite active. 

Riess : That's what I wondered, whether you could think of some who added 
considerably to the club. 

Murdock: Mrs. Branch, who had the Bentley School, is one of the faculty wives 
that was a professional person and participated in club activities. 
I can't think of any that held office. I think the officers of the 
club have always been people on the campus payroll. That might have 
included faculty wives who were also campus employees, although 
that's rather rare, because they don't usually have two members of 
a family. But there was Mrs. Mary Cover Jones, in child development, 
psychology, some of the others who were joint campus staff as well 
as having husbands on the campus, but not too many of them. 

Riess: That's right. How about the wives of chancellors and presidents? 
Murdock: Oh, yes, they've automatically been invited. 
Riess: And have some of them been active? 

Murdock: Yes. Mrs. Sproul participated, and several of the deans' wives have 
been somewhat active in the club. That is true, they are exceptions 
to the rule of automatic membership, and they've used it for 
entertaining to a certain extent. 

Riess: Do they become a kind of sponsor of the club? 

Murdock: I don't think they've ever felt they had to be. The club has 

never expected that of them. They've used the club and been I think 
proud of it as one of the assets on the campus. But I don't think 
that they've felt that they had to do something just because they 
were members of the club. 


11) Gifts and Friends 

Riess: Can you remember the events surrounding the opening of the club in 
1923? I know that a lot of very beautiful things were given to the 
club at that time. It seems also to coincide with the Berkeley 
fire for instance the piano. 

Murdock: From the Wheelers, yes. 

Riess: But, as to the giving of beautiful objects and so on to the club 
when the club opened, was there a campaign? 

Murdock: I do not think so particularly. As I said last time, some of those 
very lovely things in the living room, a few of them, were purchases 
that Hope Gladding made. I think that the club people, Miss Stebbins 
and others, set the example of giving some of the early treasures. 

The book that has the history of some of our treasures, they 
were not all 1923, but quite a few of them were later gifts of 
faculty people that had lovely things that they wanted to share with 
the campus community. I think that it was a rather spontaneous 
sharing of some things, of treasures. Others were later memorials 
to different people. It was just very fortunate that we got off to 
a start of having attractive things that encouraged people to add 
to the supply. 

Riess: Miss Julia George, "civic worker," tell me a bit about her. 
[name associated with early gifts to the club ] 

Murdock: She was a very close friend of Lucy Stebbins. I think that it was 
through Lucy Stebbins that some of her lovely things came to the 
club. She was a San Francisco social worker. I get a little 
confused about how she got connected, whether because she was the 
sister of Henry George, but she was a very interesting person. 

Riess: It was too late to have an association with Phoebe Hearst. 

Murdock: Yes, but Mrs. Hearst's generosity, of course, started the Women's 
Gymnasium, and of course her funds provided everything from the 
Mining Building on through. But she was not she didn't have 
really [any] connection with the founding of the Women's Faculty 

Riess: Were there other early benefactors to the club? 

Murdock: I think the earliest woman regent, Mrs. Margaret Sartori in Los 

Angeles, took a generous supply of stock when the club was built. 
Later, Mrs. Stern gave porch furniture in her generous way. Mrs. 
Sartori 's stock was eventually paid for, but I would say that she 
was one of the early patrons. But it hasn't depended on outside 
funds particularly; it was the members themselves who would come 
through if they ran short, which they very seldom did. 


Murdock: One of the early influences was our first manager, Muriel Ransom, 

who bought the dishes when Hope was buying the other furniture, and 
set up the standard of dining room taste that has carried on 
through. She was a very close friend of Lucy Stebbins, and sister 
of the Ransom that had the Ransom School in Piedmont. 

Riess : I wondered about what the relation the Ransom and Bridges School. 

Murdock: The Ransom and Bridges School was Marion Ransom. Her sister Muriel 
was connected with the school at one time, but also was at Mills 
as head of the dining department, and then came to the club and 
gave us our start setting up the kitchen and its standards of 

One of the associate members was Florence Minard of Mills 
College, an art fellow student of Hope Cladding's, as was Mary 
Patterson, at the Rhode Island School of Design. Miss Minard was 
an associate member with a keen interest in the club. And at the 
time when the merger was proposed, she was really responsible in 
the developing of a scrapbook to show all of our treasures and all 
the important things that we had that ought to be preserved. I 
think she felt she did a good deal to keep the club as a separate 
entity by giving a little publicity to our treasures and our 
position and what we had had to represent what we learned and 

Riess: I understand Albert Bender was a great benefactor. 

Murdock: Bender, of course, was just a darling and a very generous person. 

We are not the only beneficiaries of his generosity, because Stanford 
and Mills and other organizations have his memorials and great 
respect for all that he did for them too. 

He was a friend of Miss Peixotto and some of the early people 
I'm sure he was a very good friend of Dean Deutsch, who was friendly 
to the club. Albert Bender was just naturally generous about 
donating things to different organizations. He was our early male 
honorary member. 

Riess: Did he enjoy the title and come and meet with you? 

Murdock: Oh yes, he came and chuckled and smiled. I think he enjoyed it. 

He was a very friendly, open-hearted person. I think that pleased 
him very much to have that recognition. 

Riess: Winfield Scott Wellington sounds like he did some work as a friend 
of the club. 


Murdock: Yes, he was in the same department with Hope and was the architect 
of her house. Of course, he had wonderful taste, and appreciation 
of fine things. I think I told you he used to send his students 
over to see the collapsible table, the Chinese table that was the 
grandfather of library furniture of that type. 

Riess: When he had the treasures assessed, was that as a friend, or did he 
do that as a paid consultant? 

Murdock: No, I think that was as a friend. I don't think he was a paid 
consultant for that. 

I think the club was very fortunate all along in having the 
support of the campus. I think President Sproul and Dean Deutsch 
had a very friendly attitude, pleased that the club existed and 
represented a certain quality that the other club didn't. 

Riess: Can you remember, after the club was fully established and the men 
faculty had to reckon with you just right out their back door, how 
the interchange between the clubs was? After all, they had been 
far from charming when Dean St ebb ins had originally wanted to join 

Murdock: I think the Victorian men, you might say, I mean the Men's Faculty 
Club, was influenced in the early 1900s I suppose by Henry Morse 
Stephens and Gayley, and some of the ones that probably hadn't 
really an appreciation of women's positions on campuses. I think 
as time went on that attitude changed, and the men just accepted 
the fact that there were the two clubs. 

I don't think there was any animosity between the clubs at any 
time to any extent. 


No particular watershed times of the early days? 

No, I think they all went along quite amicably. I think probably 
the men's club was a little surprised that we managed to keep in 
the black when they were pretty perpetually in the red, but that's 
neither here nor there, [laughter] We were fortunate in having 
the guardians of the treasury, Miss Sperry and Miss Tabor, who were 
wanting to pay off our debts. I remember very well the annual 
meeting at which Agnes Fay Morgan dramatically burnt up the mortgage. 
It was pretty shortly after the club had started. 

The men's club sort of suffered from bad debts. That didn't 
bother them too much. I think women dislike being in debt and just 
do all they can to keep out of it. 


Yes, that is right. 
to pay cash. 

Well, they were told by their fathers always 



Riess : 


Riess : 


There may be something to that. That is a development of the fact 
that women are not supposed to be the big borrowers. 

Yes, that is right. The club was always close to Cowell Hospital? 

The hospital in my college days was nearer to where, well, Morrison 
is, I guess. I remember when the new Cowell was built. The club 
was always quite near the infirmary, later Cowell Hospital. The 
women physicians were always responsible members of the club and 

I remember also occasionally for an annual meeting, when there 
wasn't a quorum, you could sort of summon somebody from across the 
way, medical help [laughter], to make your quorum. 

I wondered how many women physicians there were. 

There were always women physicians, and they always were remarkable 
women. Dr. Cunningham was one of the early ones; before that 
Dr. Romilda Paroni Meads, and before that, Dr. Mary Ritter. There 
was always a woman physician. 

I looked at the elections over the years. 
1932. Did you campaign at all? 

You became a director in 


No, I think most of these things, you sort of took your turn, 
last thing I ever expected was to have to act as president. I 
think Miss Espenschade, or somebody in physical ed who had a doctor's 
degree, and was academic, which was what they preferred for 
administrators of the club, she again was a dutiful daughter, and 
she had responsibilities and didn't feel she could take it. When 
you were elected to the board, the board decided who was which 
among the officers. I sort of became president by default. The 
club doesn't elect a president, it elects a board. Then the board 
assigns the duties. 

12) Loyalty Oath, and War 

Riess: How did the loyalty oath issue affect or not affect the Women's 
Faculty Club? 

Murdock: I think they were very much disturbed about it, but there were not 
very many members who happened to be involved. One of the people, 
Margaret Peterson in art, was unwilling to sign the oath. I know 
that several of us bought pictures and so forth to help support her 
in her time of campus ostracism. But, I don't think chat the club, 
as a club, got stirred up too much about it. 


Riess : 

Riess : 

Riess : 

At the dinner table or the lunch table? 

Oh, I'm sure there was discussion of it. I don't think they got as 
upset as some of the men did, or some of the refugees from abroad 
who felt it was a sign that Hitler was taking over. 

The women of the university have often been in the services. I 
wondered whether there was any coming and going of faculty club 
women that you can remember in the wars. 

Well, Katherine Towle became a colonel in the Marines, and I 
remember World War I, Miss Peixotto wanted me to go back to 
Washington to work for somebody back there. But that is a while 
back. It dates me as being more familiar with the agitation of 
World War I, than of World War II. 

During this period did you roll bandages? 

Did the club get into 

Murdock: We did it, but again, I remember that more for World War I than II, 
knitting and rolling bandages. I think one effect the war had was 
bringing more scholarly women out to Berkeley, so the club profited 
by having sabbatical people from Wellesley or Vassar or Smith, who 
came to study on the West Coast instead of going abroad as the 
temptation always had been. So it was an enrichment to the club. 

Riess: Well then, of course, it also meant that more women came into 
professorial positions. 

Murdock: Yes, a war does affect the demand and supply and so forth. There 
is a better chance to get established at a time when there isn't 
quite so much male competition. 

Riess: Were you [the club] rationed? Did you eat beans during the war? 

Murdock: Oh, yes, we were rationed. We watched our sugar. I think the club 
has always had the miracle of having people that manage dining 
rooms successfully, and you don't suffer too much, you just do your 
patriotic duty and that's that. 


13) Margaret Murdock, and Music 

Riess: You have shared a home with Hope Gladding since 1940. You said it 
was designed by Winfield Scott Wellington. Did she commission him? 

Murdock: Yes, he was a colleague of hers in the department. She asked him 

to do the house. I think he did a very successful job for her. He 
was so interested in Treasure Island and going over to the fair 
every day practically, that he procrastinated on his architectural 
business. She got a little impatient with him because she was so 
eager to move in. He was a little slow about tending to business, 
as architect. She forgave him, and they have always been good 

Riess: She was living in the club until that time? 

Murdock: No, she was briefly in the club, thanks pretty largely to the delay 
of getting the house finished. When she first came, she had 
apartments or rooms and actually shared homes with several of the 
faculty people. She lived in the Wells 's house and in the Schevill 

Riess: Do you remember when the club was using the forestry bungalow? 

Murdock: Well, yes, as a matter of fact I remember the forestry bungalow 

because if I had had four years in sequence on the campus I would 
have majored in music. Music, like home economics, was a kind of 
a semi-orphan field that the Greek professors were not particularly 
interested in, so its housing was kind of an afterthought. For a 
while it was in a cabin that was called forestry, and for a while 
the Music Department was just exactly where the Women's Faculty 
Club now stands. I mean that little piece of land was a little 

I'm not sure that the forestry building was really much of a 
center. When it [Centennial Record] spoke about a room at Hearst 
Hall, they had some parties in the original Hearst Hall before the 
club was built. But, I think that the organizational meetings, as 
that article said, were mostly in the homes of the original people, 
like Miss Stebbins and Miss Peixotto. 

Riess : And some at Town and Gown? 
Murdock: Yes. 

Riess: You remind me that I have separated you from all of your music. Had 
you studied music as a young child? 


Murdock: Not too intensively. It was a broken-up childhood. I had piano 

lessons with Professor Julius Weber, who was a fine piano teacher in 
San Francisco. [N.B. He changed his name to Julian Waybur, but was 
Weber when he taught me. JMM] I didn't really go on with it. I 
think you need a more stablized childhood to get practicing in very 

Riess : You need a mother telling you to practice. 

Murdock: I think that's what you need! Nobody ever was around to say it is 
time to do a little practicing. 

Mr. Weber wasn't used to children as pupils. He took me on 
because he was fond of my parents. He really taught ine fractions 
and long division, in quarter notes and half notes, because I was 
too young to have gotten to that point in arithmetic when I got to 
that point in music reading. So I can just see the little edge of 
a page with the pie cut into halves and quarters to show how you 
divided things up. 

I liked singing. When I taught, I always had extra music 
classes. I think I would have liked to have been a music major, but 
that definitely had a four year sequence of harmony, counterpoint, 
and so forth. I wasn't willing to spend four years in that sequence, 
so I didn't major in music. 

Riess: Why weren't you willing? 

Murdock: Well, it didn't occur to me, I guess. I just was wanting to graduate. 
So, my music has been a hobby. I love it. 

I have been lucky to have had the pleasure of playing the 
[Sather Tower] bells. I think that probably was partly the Women's 
Faculty Club might be slightly responsible for it, because my first 
boss, Mr. King, who taught in the German Department, had had young 
man assistants, who were kind of irresponsible, and to have somebody 
that lived on the campus, at the Women's Faculty Club, who could be 
called upon on very short notice to fill in for him, was handy. 

To have somebody, if you were to be there at ten minutes of 
eight you are there at ten minutes of eight, was handy because he 
had had predecessors that didn't have that sense of timing. So, I 
think that maybe being there at the club was a real reason why I got 
started to stay with the bells. 

Riess: When was that that you started on it? 

Murdock: In 1923. 

Riess: Then did you just go as a sort of apprentice to him in the beginning? 


Murdock: Yes, and you just sort of learn to play on the bells. There were 
only twelve bells in those early days. It wasn't the elaborate 
instrument that it is now. 

14) The Parties 

[Interview 3: May 14, 1982. Interview held at the Women's Faculty Club] 

Riess: Miss Murdock, I wish you'd tell me about some of the parties at the 
club. From what I've heard, they were very inventive and elaborate. 

Murdock: Well, the Christmas parties were really quite delightful. We had a 
chorus of ladies march in singing "Adeste Fideles" in proper Latin, 
wearing lovely colored robes and white I don't think they call them 
wimples, but at any rate, medieval headdresses, like nuns. Not 
only some of the residents, but some of the associate members, like 
Mrs. Adams, Professor Adams' wife, were part of the chorus, and Alice 
Greer, who was in the placement office. We had a very excellent 
pianist to accompany us, and whatever the other program was, the 
choral group was featured, just as the men [The Faculty Club] had 
their Monks who were part of their Christmas party. 

Riess: They were The Monks, and you were looking a little like nuns? 

Murdock: It wasn't on purpose. They just had always had Monks, and we didn't 

really catch the idea [from that.] But this seemed to be appropriate, 
and we had our equipment for it. Year after year after year, our 
choral books and our nuns costumes , We marched with candles , and had 
to see that we didn't drip the wax on our robes or our hands! 
[laughs] But we were quite adroit. 

Riess: Was there much rehearsing? 

Murdock: We didn't have to rehearse for the chorus, but one year we did a 

mystery miracle play, the Tr^neley Play, and I happened to pick up 
the book to bring [today], I was one of the shepherds, and I 
remember that we had a speech person here who said that I said, 
"Hail, our comely [pronounced calm-ly] one," instead of comely 
[pronounced come-ly] one. But I remember the play by remembering 
that Christine Price, the librarian, was- the Third Shepherd, and did 

"Hail, put forth thy dall, 

I bring thee but a ball. 
Keep it, and play with it withal, 
And go to the tennis," 


Murdock: We had the most beautiful Mary, who was the daughter of Professor 
[Leon] Richardson. And I think the Father Joseph was one of the 
Physical Education Department people, wfio could make a very good 
man. For a long time we had her beard down in our costume trunk, 
in case we were ever going to do that same thing again. 

Sometimes we had a speaker, or a reader of Christmas material. 
One of our best was Constance Steele's sister, Evelyn Little, who 
was out at Mills, a professor there, and who was a very expert reader 
and very adroit at finding different and interesting things to read. 

But the Christmas parties were always fun, and Marian Moore, 
who accompanied us on the piano, was I think a minister's daughter 
and used to doing the Christmas carols with great gusto. 

Riess: That was the old Wheeler piano? 
Murdock: Yes, a treasure from the Wheeler estate. 
Riess: Was it used much? Or is it? 

Murdock: Quite a bit, because now we have several members who belong to the 
Music Department. It's been sporadic. There have been times when 
we have had programs of instrumental music, or different groups 
that have been here have made use of it. For several of the parties 
recently, somebody from the Music Department has played. 

Riess: When you, a pianist, lived here, did you play the piano? 

Murdock: Well, I didn't practice much. And I had my own little Steinway 
upstairs, which I seldom played, because my next door neighbor 
thought it was noisy. In fact, th.ere were three pianos, at one 
time or another, on the top floor, and the person next to me for 
quite a while had a large grand piano that took up so much space that 
she practically had to sleep under the piano. 

Riess: Who was she? 

Murdock: She was a visiting scholar I'm not quite sure, because her 

predecessor was very musical, and I didn't like to play in her 
presence, very often. I remember practicing for a wedding march 
once to play for a friend's daughter's wedding and she eventually 
thought I had mastered my little piece, but I think it took some 
time before it sounded proper to her. 

And then we had a Chinese librarian who had her piano and was 
not any more expert than I was, and it was a little bit of a problem 
to have several pianos up on the third floor, and I think most of 
us began to feel we had better keep them quiet. 


Murdock: But getting back to the parties, the first one that I remember was 
before the club was built. It was over at Hearst Gymnasium. That 
must have been in 1921 or 1922, because they had already invited 
associates, or administrative people, to supplement the early 
professional scholars. It was a costume party, of sorts, and Miss 
Fancher came as the Campanile, in cardboard. Hope Gladding was a 
Raggedy Ann, with her red braids. And somebody else was Barney's 
Beanery, like a sandwich board, advertising it it was one of the 
popular eating places. I think I was the lady that was on the 
outside of the Baker's Chocolate can. I had a little mobcap and a 
little apron. 

The most amusing costume that I can remember most vividly was 
Constance Grey, who was the secretary of the Chemistry Department, 
and Mrs. Branch, whose husband was in chemistry. They came as 
tramps, wearing Professor [Gerald E. K. ] Branch's garden clothes, 
and [laughing] the campus police at the door wouldn't let them 
in for a while. But eventually they convinced him that it was a 

Riess: Nowadays people are often sort of ambivalent about bothering to get 
into costumes. 

Murdock: I know. In those days it was being done, I guess. And we even 
learned all our parts for the Miracle Plays. It was Mrs. [Sara 
Hunstman] Sturgess who coached us. We did "The Owl and the Pussycat," 
and "The Bishop of Rum-ti-poo." One of the physical ed people 
turned somersaults. And we had a very effective owl and pussycat 
that went to sea in a peagreen boat , 

Another one I remember that was fun was our hat parties. You 
didn't have to have a whole costume, but you wore a hat and people 
were supposed to guess what books you were representing. I can date 
that part because it was a time when you could do Fashion is Spinach, 
or The Egg and I, which were both good hat titles! People enjoyed 
dressing up and using their imagination for things of that sort. 
And people didn't watch t.v. or have as many diversions; you made 
your own entertainment. 

They had a lovely Living Pictures party that Miss [Mary] 
Patterson, I think, masterminded. I remember vividly that Miss 
Stebbins' moth_er, Mrs. Stebbins, who was a really proper person for 
it, did "Whistler's Mother" most effectively. I don't remember the 
other tableaux for that party, but it was a very charming party and 
took a good deal of planning. 

Riess: When did people start doing Living Pictures? 


Murdock: Oh, I think that was probably from Victorian days. It was lots of 
fun, because people could do a Breughel or something or other quite 

I think for that one they used the small dining room as the 
stage, and the audience was in the hall. Usually the library was 
the stage, or the performance would be just at one end of tne living 

I remember one in which there was a domestic scene, and the man 
of the house in it was dressed up properly, and I was driving her 
home and we were down on the campus and for some reason got stopped 
and she was very embarrassed to be in this masculine costume, and it 
was all very amusing because the campus policeman looked a little 

Riess: Did you do skits, where the members wrote the lines? 

Murdock: I can't remember particularly. We might have, but I don't seem to 
remember using people's talents. There were people who could have 
done it; Barbara Nachtrieb was very active in dramatics in college, 
took the lead in "Parthenia" and so forth, But I don't seem to 
remember her, as a law professor, getting out of that character for 
dramatics here. Not that she couldn't have, but I think she was 
busy with other things. Possibly she had a small child then, and at 
the time that we were going into such frivolity, she was otherwise 

Riess: Traditionally there was the Christmas party, and then what other 
times of year? 

Murdock: The Annual Dinner was always an event, with an excellent speaker, 

quite often Miss Coulter of the library, who was one of the wittiest 
speakers that you could imagine. That was an occasion for your 
formal clothes and for recognizing new members, having them 
introduced, and not too succintly, enough so that we really would 
know them. That was an occasion that vou got out your finery for. 

I remember once when two people appeared in identical dresses, 
to everybody's embarrassment. One had bought hers in Nevada. I 
think the people here, at Sather Gate Apparel and so forth, wouldn't 
sell things that were twins to people that might meet at the same 
parties. But this was an innocent buying of her evening dress in 
another town and then finding its duplicate at the party. They both 
were at the speaker's table! 

Riess: This would be a dress you might wear to the opera? 


Murdock: Oh, yes! And of course some of them "Lenty" [May Lent] had a long 
blue lace that turned up every year. She didn't bother to get a 
new one. It was pretty, and she only wore it once a year. She 
kind of joked about it. But it got a little monotonous. 

Riess: "Lenty." People tended to have those nicknames. 

Murdock: Yes, although people had their dignity. I went to memorial services 
for Emily Huntington, who was one of our earliest distinguished 
members, and one of her colleagues spoke of how long it took to call 
her even Miss Huntington, rather than "Professor," and 1 think he 
never did get to "Emily." 

Riess: Names like "Smitty" for Josephine Smith. How about you? 

Murdock: I was just Margaret. 

Riess: And Dean Stebbins? Very formally addressed? 

Murdock: Yes, I knew her from early days, But it was awfully hard. She 
finally told me, "Can't you say 'Lucy*?' 1 

Riess: And Dean Davidson? 

Murdock: She was called "Bobbie," and I don't know why. 

When I think of the early people connected with parties and 
things, I believe I hadn't spoken before of Margaret Beattie. She 
was one of our early members who was very helpful in decorations 
for parties and so forth. She didn^t dress up and act to the same 
extent as some of the others, but her brother Douglas had a 
beautiful voice, and he often sang at our Christmas parties, and it 
would be something that you would remember with great pleasure. 

In fact, we often did have male performers, like Douglas Beattie, 
to sing. There was no reason for not, if there was somebody in the 
faFiily who could contribute that way. 

Riess: People brought their children to parties? 

Murdock: Yes, we have quite a few that remember the club from their childhood 
days, but there weren't too many members of the club that had them. 

We had someone here whose grandchildren came, and they were 
racing along in the corridor upstairs, and the older one said to 
the younger, "You mustn't make so much noise. This is a sort of a 
hospital." {laughter] 

Riess: Did The Monks ever come entertain you at the club? 



Riess : 




I think once or twice, but it wasn't a tradition. We often had a 
campus group of singers, and we had the Boy's Chorus [of San 
Francisco] one time. 

Just as an activity, did the residents do play readings? 

Not to any great extent. I think there were times when they wanted 
to be more social than they probably needed to to keep their members 
interested in the club, having bridge, or having dance or 
something. But there weren't enough members interested in that, 
and if they had that interest, or with, their husbands, in other 
groups, that was fine. It was attempted here as a way to keep the 
members together, but it never really took, particularly. They 
were busy with their own professional affairs, and those that liked 
bridge played it with couples at their own homes or elsewhere. But 
the club didn't become a factor in that type of entertainment, I would 

Then as time went on, people went home at five o'clock, as it 
were, and the club wasn't a place that they would gather at night 
for parties. I think the time comes when transportation or safety 
are factors. The club, of course, used to serve dinners and 
thrived on it. But the time came when so few people came that it 
wasn't financially sensible. 

Who were the main guiding lights for the parties? You, for one. 

I think all of us enjoyed that sort of frivolity in the early days, 
but I think the younger ones that came in didn't think of it as a 
social center to the same extent that it was true in the very early 

The Depression, the wars, would affect that? 

Yes, I think so. People got more serious about things. If you 
wanted to exercise your sense of frivolity it wouldn't be through, 
the club . 

Dressing as tramps, when people were begging in the streets. 

They [the costumed tramps] were very effective! One of them had a 
tooth painted out black. Humorous and unusual then, in the days 
when women never wore pants! 

You spoke of the war. We had our Victory Garden, We had a 
parking lot over here, but it did have some space around it, and we 
had several residents who got busy planting vegetables and feeding 
us, and even one of the maids had her little plot and helped grow 
things. I think there are some amusing pictures somewhere of people 
out in their Victory Garden. But I don't think they'd do that now, 
even if there was space. 


Riess : 


Murdock: The present residents are mostly visiting scholars, and not treating 
it as a home [the club]. 

Riess: In the older days, visiting dignitaries who stayed at the club moved 
right into the homey atmosphere? 

Murdock: They accepted that, though they didn't always participate. It is 

true of visitors in any home. Some get in and wash the dishes, and 
others don't 

We had here the person who wrote Mary Poppins. And I remember 
being very thrilled to go upstairs once and find that Catherine 
Drinker Bowen was there. And I enjoyed particularly the summers 
that Madame [Alice] Ehlers was doing harpsichord concerts and would 
be here for several weeks. She enjoyed the club very much and came 
back for several years when she was concertizing here. 

We had English writers, and we had a very interesting Jewish 
scholar from Jerusalem. I remember I played some music for her in 
the Tower, and the next morning when I was in the office, in she 
came with a charming little tray one of these black plastic things 
with coins set in it, Hebrew coins in it, and she gave it to me as a. sort of 
a thank you for playing her music. 

It was fun on the Tower to serenade some of our visiting people. 
There was somebody who had been here in anthropology and gone to 
Hawaii, so when she was back from Hawaii on a visit, I played 
"Aloha" and various things for her. That was part of the fun of 
knowing who was here, doing a little something on the bells to 
surprise them. 

[continuing discussion of visiting scholars and the club] I 
think with our visiting people now it still happens that people pick 
their brains about their fields, take advantage of their willingness 
to share their expertise. It's been a blessing for the club. It 
probably operates more at the breakfast table than elsewhere, though 
when we've had our Lunch and Learn programs we have quite often 
invited short term residents to share their experiences. 

One of the people who sent us [recommended staying at the club] 
several interesting people was Professor [George] Papenfuss in botany, 
who came from South Africa and knew scholars all over the world. 
Whenever any women scholars in his field were in this vicinity, he 
saw to it that they stayed here. He sent such nice people! 

Transcriber: Matt Schneider 
Final Typist: Nicole Bouche 




1) The Founders of the Women's Faculty Club 67 

2) Membership 71 

3) The Club During the Depression, and the Loyalty Oath 75 

4) President Sproul, and Women at the University 76 

5) Lunch 78 

Agnes Robb, Administrative Secretary to President Sproul, 1951 


Agnes Robb 
January 20, 1982 
Interviewed at her home 

1) The Founders of the Women's Faculty Club 

Riess : Miss Robb, you have certainly been a member of the Women's Faculty 

Club long enough to have clear memories about its founders . Tell me 
about them, please. 

Robb: The founding members of the Women's Faculty Club, like the Founding 
Fathers of our nation, were brilliant women of the time who were 
leaders in their chosen fields. 

In 1919 the Women's Faculty Club was the brainchild of Lucy 
Ward Stebbins, the daughter of a distinguished San Francisco 
Unitarian minister. Perhaps the best characterization of her is 
to quote from the honorary degree conferred upon her by the president 
of the University of California at the 1953 commencement. 

Dean of Women on this campus for almost three decades, 
and for most of those years Professor of Social 
Economics. Active in the establishment of the 
Schools of Nursing and Social Welfare, and in their 
sound educational development. A teacher and dean 
"indu'd with sanctity of reason," who saw clearly 
into the hearts and minds of students, and stimulated 
them by precept and example to achieve their highest 
potential. No single individual has contributed more 
to the personal and general welfare of the University's 
women, and few have touched helpfully so many phases of 
our University life. 

Jessica Peixotto, a colleague and a good friend of Dean Stebbins, 
called together several women leaders on the campus to consider the 
formation of a faculty group. They became the nucleus of the founders 
of the club. 

Miss Stebbins had no peer in her field. 

Riess: As dean of women did Miss Stebbins have a chance to do any teaching 
at all? 


Robb : Oh, yes, she taught and I still see former members of her classes. 

I remember if Dean Putnam, the dean of men who handled student 
affairs, had a disciplinary problem, an intercampus or community 
problem, he always consulted Dean Stebbins. He told me he would 
never think of coming to a conclusion without consulting Dean Stebbins. 

Miss Pexiotto was the second woman to get a Ph.D. and the first 
woman full professor at the University of California. She was active 
in all phases of economics, and especially in child welfare, and 
wrote extensively. She was the eldest of six children, and the only 
girl in a prominent Bay Area family. 

Barbara Nachtrieb Armstrong (Barbara Grimes in the early days), 
was another distinguished faculty woman. President Clark Kerr in 
conferring an honorary degree said, in part, of her: 

Distinguished by the breadth and depth of your teaching 
and research in law and economics . . . with a sustained 
interest in the law affecting the more dependent 
sections of the community. An authority on family law 
and community property. 

She was known beyond the boundaries of the state. She was 
prominent in her college days as beautiful, talented, and brilliant. 
She participated in the formulation of the social security progran, 
and worked closely with Chester Rowell in the set up of the state 
health program. She was professor of law and the first woman law 
professor in any major university. 

Riess: Formidable combination! 

Robb; Oh, she was just really a very unusual person: beautiful, as I said, 
and very bright. As a matter of fact, she told a story: John 
Simpson, who received the University Medal in the class of 1913, 
thought he should split it in half for Barbara because she should 
have had the [honor]. Barbara told me also that some of the 
professors had said that, but she was a woman so she didn't get it. 
John Simpson was enamored with her for many years . 

Riess: Tell me about Agnes Fay Morgan. What kind of a person was she? 

Robb: Agnes Fay Morgan - "Eminent biochemist, pioneer in the development of 
the science of nutrition . . . Your university today honors your 
extraordinary contributions to the advancement of knowledge in your 
chosen field," so said President Clark Kerr in conferring her 
honorary degree. 


Robb: She was a delightful person. She was the one who discovered Vitamin 
B to keep our hair from getting grey. She was a great I guess I 
can't coin a word she was great on vitamins. She had a son. I 
think she came from the state of Washington. She was interested in 
wines too, and became a member of the Wine Institute composed 
almost entirely of men. I'm not certain this is the correct name. 

Riess : Yes, that is. 

Robb: I remember Vice-President [ClaudeJ Hutchison asking me one time for 
suggestions for a certain committee. I was giving suggestions, and 
I don't think they amounted to much. Then I said, "Agnes Fay Morgan." 
He was looking for a man. Then I said, "Why don't you put on a woman? 
There is Agnes Fay Morgan." "Oh! She is just like one of us!" So 
she was. Her field, of course, was largely a field where men were 

She was active in Davis as well. She wasn't in home economics , 
I have forgotten what the department was called, [household science] 

Agnes Fay Morgan I knew well and admired. Her hair was very 
auburn and reddish, and there was always the talk, "You know, I 
think she dyes it. You know, I don't think that the vitamins did 
it." She laid great stress on the fact that that was possible. 
I said, "Gee, I am practically grey. How about doing something for 
me?" She said, "Oh, I should have had you a long time ago to do 
anything. " 

She told me a story about Admiral Byrd. She met him at some 
occasion. The question of vitamins came up. He was going on one of 
his expeditions and asked her to set up a menu for the trip which 
was to extend over months. She did, and it was highly vitamin 
included. The trip was very successful the whole time, with no 
trouble at all healthwise. So that is a contribution. I don't 
know how well that is known. 

Riess: That is very interesting. Why did he ask her? What was the connection? 

Robb: Well, they met at some kind of an affair, or their paths crossed. 

Maybe he was concerned as to, "What do I feed these men when we get 
down there?" I don't know. Anyway, this was a personal interview 
with her and him. He asked her then to do this and she did. They 
had no trouble whatsoever the whole time. 

Riess: What really did Dean Hutchison mean when he said, "Oh, she is just 
like one of us?" 

Robb: It meant that she is just part of the discussion, "We don't pay any 
attention to whether she is a woman, it is what she has to offer." 


Riess: Speaking of the founders of the club, who was Margaret Beattie? 

Robb : Margaret Beattie was a professor of bacteriology. She was one of 
the founders . 

Riess: She was one of the charter members, I know. I have a little list 

Robb: And she was one of the last to die. I think perhaps Katherine Bishop 
was the last of the founders. 

Miss Beattie was beloved by students. She was ready at any 
time to help a student in trouble, financial or otherwise. Soon 
after Mr. Sproul became president he appointed a group of faculty 
men and women to serve as advisors to students not fraternity or 
sorority members, to help orient those from out of town. This plan 
was discontinued and the dean of students enlarged their activities. 

Riess: What did those early founders represent to other women in the 
university community? 

Robb: I think, Miss Stebbins, Miss Peixotto and Mrs. Armstrong were for 
women's rights, but not as we know of women's rights today. They 
were forerunners. They had their place but they had to earn it, 
and compete, very definitely compete. 

Miss Edith Coulter was one of the club founders. I think she 
was a head librarian. She wasn't head of the school or the main 
library it was Mr. Leupp and later Mr. Coney but she was maybe the 
reference librarian. She was a very competent person, somewhat like 
Hiss Stebbins, very severe. She had a very subtle sense of humor. 
I am not sure Miss Stebbins had a sense of humor. She had a sense 
of friendliness, and a warmth that came eventually, but Miss 
Coulter had a very subtle and good sense of humor. 

Miss Coulter was librarian when I was in college. She 
patrolled the main reference library. "Put on your mask!" and you 
put on your mask when she told you. It was during the flu epidemic 
of 1918. If there was any conversation in the library, she would 
march down the hall with great authority and say, "No talking in 
the library!" She meant it and you knew she meant it. It was the 
old school teacher [type]. But clie was a fine person. She made 
great contributions to the club in its administration. 

Sarah Davis was one of the very first five or six founders. 
She was treasurer for many, many, many years. I don't know how to 
characterize her without defaming her. I don't want to say a little 
old lady, because she wasn't an old lady, But she was a little 
spinster, a very definitely old time spinster lady who was most 


Robb : devoted to the club, most accurate about everything, and served It 
very well. She was quiet and shy but very effective. Evidently 
she was one who could contribute much because the Stebbins-Peixotto 
people drew her in from the very first. I have forgotten what her 
field was. 

Riess: She was a person for whom the club was very important then. 
Robb: Oh yes, I think the club was her life, probably. 

The ones who contributed the most to the ornamentation in the 
club were Mary Patterson and Hope Gladding. 

Riess: You mean as far as acquiring beautiful things? 

Robb: Yes, and in arranging. That is, she [Mary] would do that. 

Riess: What about Hope Gladding? 


Robb: As far as I remember, and this may not be accurate, Mary Patterson 

was more active than Hope Gladding in my days. That's an impression. 

2) Membership 

Riess: What has your role been in the club? 

Robb: I have always been a supporter. I used the dining room frequently 

and contributed when somebody died to the memorial fund. I think 

only once did I serve on a committee, which didn't do what I had 
hoped they would. 

Riess: What was that committee: 

Rohb : That was, they would invite certain community members who were 

distinct in a profession or a community service as honorary members 
of the club. It fell flat. Somewhere along the line, I think, the 
policy has changed and they elect prominent community women. 

Riess: I wonder if that fell flat because of the presence of the Berkeley 
Women's City Club and other alternative clubs. 

Robh: No, I don't think so, I haven't any recollection of that. I think 
the main thing was that the committee felt that it was strictly a 
university affair and that they shouldn't go outside the University. 

My intention [in this interview] was to speak only of the 
individuals and not of the club because I was not intimately 
connected with the activities of the club. 


Riess : I noticed in your earlier oral history you said that in college you 
hadn't been much of a joiner.* You felt that that was, in a way, a 

Robb : It was. I am not a joiner, generally. I belong to the Berkeley 
Clinic Auxiliary and I served in that as treasurer and secretary 
and archivist. Then I was retired. At least Mr. Sproul had retired 
and I had less and less and less to do. That is about the only 
thing that I really have participated in. Socially, yes, but not 
administratively, so to speak. 

Riess: I wondered, in relation to the Women's Faculty Club, whether you 
felt that because of your particular position, that it was just 
somehow inappropriate for you to be too involved. 

Robb: No, no. As a matter of fact, I don't know how I became a member, 
because in the early days you had to be a faculty member. 

Riess: Margaret Murdock was not faculty, and neither was Josephine Smith. 

Robb: But Josephine Smith didn't come in until sometime later. Margaret 
came in in 1921. Hope Gladding was active in the early days. I 
don't know whether her [Margaret Murdock' s] connection was as close 
to Hope in those days as now. 

I asked Miss Smith the other day, I said, "I guess I am the 
oldest member of the club." I thought probably I was. I didn't 
realize Margaret Murdock was such an early member, because she was 
active as well as employed in the club. 

Smitty, as she was affectionately known in the president's 
office, said, "Oh, no. I am older than you are." I said, "I meant 
an earlier member of the club." She said, "Oh, Sproul got you in 
the club." Well, he didn't. 

Riess: Among the earliest members of the club were librarians. Librarians 
are not faculty. 

Rohb: No, but they were in a status all their own. Their faculty titles 
were changed later in the Sproul administration, I think. [1963] 

Riess: You say you don't feel that Dr. Sproul pushed you in? 

Robb: I know he didn't, because he was just, oh, very careful. He fused] 
no influence whatsoever. 

*Agnes Roddy Robb, Robert Gordon Sproul and the University of California. 
an oral history interview conducted 1973-1974, Regional Oral History 
Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1976. 


Riess : So you weren't sent to the club as the president's spy? 

Robb: Oh, no. Did somebody say that? 

Riess: No, I just had that idea, to find out what the women were thinking. 

Robb: No, well, as a matter of fact, I don't think I was thinking very 
much. But, I did enjoy the club as a dining room. 

Is anybody talking about Miss Ranson? Somebody should. 

Riess: I have heard that those were great days under her management. I 
would like to hear more about that. 

Robb: Well, when I joined the club Miss Ransom was the manager. I guess 
she ran the club in every way, administratively as well as the 
dining room. The dining room was a tea room of the highest order. 
On and off they would serve dinners depending on labor conditions; 
it wasn't always luncheon and dinner. The menus and the cooking 
were delightful. The meals were beautifully prepared and 
beautifully served. 

Riess: Was it always students who served? 

Robb: Probably, most of the time they did. It was a good source of income 
for the students. 

Riess : What kind of a woman was Miss Ransom? 

Robb: Well, she was, shall I say, a maiden lady? Very elegant in her 

appearance. She wasn't a style person necessarily. She looked like 
a lady in every sense of the word and was. She ran the Ransom School. 
She came out of there. Some of the members of the club were from 
the Ransom School: Katherine Towle and Eleanor Gardner, and who 
else? I can't think offhand; perhaps Patricia Sizer. 

Riess: Josephine Miles used the term "blue stockings" about some of the 
early club women. 

Robb: Well, I know the term but I don't ever remember it used on the campus. 
I suppose they would have been the founders, Olga Bridgman, Hope 
Gladding and Mary Patterson among later leaders in the club. I 
thought of them as socially prominent and effective women. 

Riess: When you talk about socially prominent, do you...? 

Rohb: That is, socially prominent in the club. Our leaders. Leader would 
be a better word than socially prominent. The club was not a social 
organization at any time. 


Riess: Was it quite consciously not social? 

Robb : I think so. "Lunch and Learn," and the retirement parties are 
relatively recent. 

Riess: Earlier they would have avoided bridge lunches and all of that sort 
of thing? 

Robb: Yes, oh yes. You see, they were faculty women. In those early days 
they had to be faculty. If administrative, you probably were of 
faculty qualifications. It was definitely the Women's Faculty Club. 

Riess: But why wouldn't these faculty women have enjoyed a place where they 
could just be social? 

Robb: Miss Stebbins, of course, had a social life of her own. I think they 
all had social lives of their own. 

Riess: I see. The women who were the residents in the club, that was 

Robb: There weren't very many residents. There were three, four or five, 
and they stayed on for several years after they retired. They 
finally had to leave. These were Mary B. Davidson, and May Dornin 
and Lucille Czarnowski. 

Mary B. Davidson was dean of women. She lived at the club after 
the Berkeley fire in 1923. Her house was burned down and I think 
she lived in the club from then on. She became dean of women, 
succeeding Lucy Stebbins. 

Riess: I don't know whether the idea was to have the residents as a way of 
making money for the club, or whether it was a way to serve the 
women faculty who needed a place to live. Which do you think? 

Robb : I think that was it . 

Riess: To serve. 

Robb: Yes, because I don't think they took graduate students until later. 

See, all of those were members of the faculty, or top 
administrative offices like Mrs. Davidson. First she was assistant 
to Dean Stebbins for many years, and it was an excellent combination 
Because Miss Stebbins was a stately person in appearance not in 
personality, but in appearance and in her relations she was commanding 
in appearance. Mrs. Davidson was just the opposite. She was the 
light, social, friendly person. So it was a beautiful combination. 
It went on for many years, I guess until Miss Stebbins retired. 


3) The Club During the Depression, and the Loyalty Oath 

Robb: Another member from relatively far back is Ruth Okey, who is still 

alive and worked under Agnes Fay Morgan. They were entirely different 
types of people. Ruth Okey had some part in the club later on. I 
think the club ran into menu difficulties, perhaps during the war, 
and they were seeking information, and they called on Ruth Okey for 

Riess : Because of rationing they were unable to get what they needed? 
Robb : Yes . 

Riess: How did the club manage during those periods of crisis: the war, the 
Depression, the loyalty oath? 

Rohb : In the Depression I think that they must have lost a number of 

members. I know Blanche Miller, who went in presumably about the 
same time I did because we worked in the controller's office at the 
same time and we always ate on Tuesdays she resigned because she 
had to curtail. 

Only once were the university salaries cut. They were restored 
after one year, probably the only place in the country where that 

Riess: You mean the only place in the country where they were actually cut? 
Rohb: No, where they were cut and restored so quickly. 

Riess: You are saying that it was so tight that somebody would resign their 
membership just to save the two or three dollars a month.? 

Robb: I guess so. I know she said, "Oh, well, there are other things." 

That is the only one I know. I don't think there was a massive exit. 

Riess: During the loyalty oath, do you remember the club being a place where 
there was a lot of discussion and concern about that? 

Rohb: Oh, I am sure there was. I don't think that it was organized 

discussion. I know I was always being approached by faculty on both 
sides of the problem. I'd come back to Mr. Sproul and say, "Oh, I'm 
scared. " 

"You are doing all right, you are doing all right," 
Riessr: They'd want you to tell him what they thought. 
Robh: Yes. 


Riess: Well, he might have Been interested to find out. 

Robb : Yes, he was. He'd say, "Well, that's all right, you are doing fine." 
"Oh, but I don't know!" I was scared! 

Riess: Well, I am sure that they probably would ask you, "Now, what does he 
think? What is he doing?" 

Robb: I know that some of the men talked to me. Professor [Robert] Erode 
was one very early in the days. Maybe I didn't do well by Professor 
Erode. They would talk, you know, and maybe I didn't sell their bill 
of goods enough because I am not always articulate. 

Riess: They probably thought they could talk Agnes into something or other. 
How did you deal with that, when people buttonholed you and said, 
"You know, I want you to tell Bob Sproul this?" 

Robb,: Well, he always had a ready ear. I tried to be correct in transmitting 
it. I don't know. I was a channel of communication. There is no 
question about that. I felt that I was. He felt that I should be, 
too, because I had his intere&t at heart first. You never know how 
much the other fellow is working for himself through you. 

4) President Sproul, and Women at the University 

Riess: Did President Sproul have any particular attitude toward the Women's 
Faculty Club? 

Robb: Yes, he did. He was interested in the club, but he and Mrs, Sproul 
felt the President's House should be used in place of our facilities. 
There was a time when he had some funds. I don't think the club 
rose to the occasion. They did something for the kitchen. I am 
sure they could have had more, but they didn't seem to be interested 
at the time, or didn't know how to present it or something. 

Riess: Alxout what time do you think that would have been? 

R^bh: Well, it would have been during the time he was president, so it 
would have been the middle fifties maybe. Anyway, they got a 
sizable sum for the kitchen. I have forgotten. Catharine Quire, I 
think, was active in the thing. They seemed to be satisfied that 
that was enough. He said, to me, "Well, do you think that is all 

I said, "Well, they haven't come up with anything." I was not 
promoting anything within the club. I was the channel of communica 
tion between the two. I tried to maintain that position always. 


Riess : It never occurred to them to take advantage of this opening wedge. 
Robb: No, I don't think so. 

Riess: That is interesting, because later on they really needed money. I 
guess maybe in the fifties they didn't feel they did. 

Robb: Well, I can't pinpoint the time because I space my time: in California 
Hall and in Sproul Hall. It was "before and after" California Hall 
in my later life. 

Riess: In my letter I said to you, "What do you recollect of the administra 
tion's view of the club? Was: it amused and tolerant, or respectful, 
or uninterested?" What was President Sproul 's attitude toward 
faculty women? 

Robb: He was strong for faculty women. I think in my book I tried to make 
the point that it was beyond him.* He was criticized for not 
appointing more women on the faculty, but they had to come up 
through the prescribed faculty procedure. So there was a certain 
aversion to women. They had to compete, and the leaders of the 
Women's Faculty Club did, you see. 

Riess: There was a large segment of physical education people who were in 
the club in those days. I wondered whether they were academic. 

Robb: Yes, they were, but they had a different title. It is somewhat like 
the business tools. I think when I was in college, at least right 
after I was in college, there was the question of typewriting and 
stenography being given in the Economics Department. That was 
ruled out. I think physical education was on a higher level, but 
somewhat the same. It was a vocation rather than a profession. 

Riess: That is exactly the dichotomy: vocation, profession. 

Robb: But they regarded themselves as academic and I think they were 
members of the senate. I am nof. sure. 

Riess: Well, there were certainly a lot of them. 

Robb: Oh yes, well, they were a department of women. I think physical 
ed was a required subject. You see, there was men and women. In 
the Sproul administration they were joined together, which was a 
movement somewhat favorable to the recognition of women, let's say. 
Although I am not sure they didn't think they were put down. 

*See Robb oral history, cited p. 72. 


5) Lunch 

Riess: You said that on Tuesdays you had lunch with...? 
Rohb: Blanche Miller. 

Riess: Yes, with Blanche Miller. Now, did you have other particular days 
of the week that you would meet people there? 

Robb : Oh, I used to eat with the deans regularly, but not obligated; that 
is, not the first Tuesday or the second Friday or something, but two 
or three times a week. There was Ruth Donnelly and Bobbie [Dean 
Mary B. ] Davidson, and Marion Morrow who was Ralph Merritt's 
sister-in-law, and an intimate friend of Bobbie Davidson and perhaps 
was her guest. 

Riess: This group would just be there, and when you arrived you would sit 
with them? 


Robb: Yes. Sometimes I would call, "Are you going to be there?" Ruth 
Donnelly, later president of the club, has since died. Also, 
Catherine Quire was the other, and she has died. She was dean of 
women too. Sometimes Katherine Towle, but not always. 

Riess: What did you do, talk business at lunch? 

Robb: Oh no, we just gabbed. Sometimes it was club gossip. No, no it was 
social. They were all friends who met. 

Riess: You wouldn't be likely to arrive there at noon saying, "Oh, what a 
morning we have had, such and such is blowing up." 

Robb: Oh, yes, maybe. Well, Ruth Donnelly and Mary Davidson very often 
would. Ruth wasn't in the same department but her business was 
related to the students. She was a good president of the club. 

Riess: What do you think makes a good president of the club? 
Robb: A good administrator and a good speaker. 

Riess: The matter of being a good fundraiser apparently has not been an 

Robb: No, I don't recall it was ever an issue. As a matter of fact, the 
dues, I think, are ridiculously small. Now, apparently it is doing 
very well financially. 


Riess: Josephine Smith said to me that when she went to the club she would 
always put herself behind a magazine because she wanted the club to 
be an hour when she was free. 

Robb: Smitty sat by herself with the Saturday Evening Post when an Agatha 
Christie story would come out. I think it was Agatha Christie. 
Whoever it was, she would have to read that. Then she took to 
skating and she would come with her book and she'd read and practice 
the steps under the table. She's quite a "gal." That's very true. 
She would go and sit by herself. Nobody dared even say "good morning." 
She was engrossed. 

Riess: If you didn't go there, you would just go to lunch on Telegraph 

Robb: Yes, I belonged to the Berkeley City Club and I used to go down 
there occasionally. 

Transcriber: Beverly Butcher 
Final Typist: Nicole Bouche 




1) Library Career 81 

2) Life Inside the Women's Faculty Club 84 

3) Committee Work 90 

4) Special Visitors to the Club 92 

5) Friends and Residents 96 

6) Early Surroundings of the Women's Faculty Club 100 

v4 -j> 

/'/.; ' 


l.\ \ 

May Dornin, Librarian, University Archives, 1936 

Photo by Kse Coleman 


May Dornin 

March 5, 1979 

Interviewed at her residence in The Sequoias, San Francisco 

1) Library Career 

Riess: When did you graduate from the university? 

Dornin: In 1921. 

Riess: When did you first become aware of the Women's Faculty Club? 

Dornin: I worked my way through college because my father had died and I 

had to have some [financial] help. I was very, very lucky to get a 
job in the library as a student assistant. The job I had was putting 
those little labels on the backs [spines] of books, and then writing 
the "call numbers" on then. That was in the catalog department. 

At the end of the catalog room, at the end of the library too, 
there is a cloakroom for the women staff. Well, when I would be 
coming in with my coat, to put my coat away, why perhaps Miss [Edith] 
Coulter, and Miss [Pauline] Gunthorp or Miss [Nella Jane] Martin or 
so on, might have been at a meeting the night before about this, and 
they'd be talking about it. Of course, I didn't stand there to listen 
to it, but if I was there a bit I'd overhear this I knew that 
something was doing. And the other student assistants, they would 
hear odds and ends. This was during the year 1919. 

What was happening was that the women were getting very upset 
because the men you see, oh, it was so macho in those days. In the 
men's club [The Faculty Club], no women could come in, unless they 
were escorted by a man, and they could only come on very special 
occasions. You know, they had a "ladies night" or something like 
that, and then faculty women were admitted and the faculty wives could 
come with their husbands. Or, once in a while, if it was some 
important visitor, they might have a dinner and they might invite the 
wives of the deans or the most highly positioned women, such as Dean 
St ebb ins. 

Riess: But the faculty women? 


Dornin: But the faculty women couldn't go, although it was a faculty club, 
not a men's faculty club, a faculty club. 

Now Miss [Lucy] Stebbins, I think, was one of the earliest 
people to talk about it, because being dean of women, as she was, 
from 1913 to 1936, everything that had to do with the women she 
was very keen about. Her own student women, she didn't like the 
way we were treated either. There were lots of things that we 
couldn't do; the boys had things that we didn't have, as women. 

For instance, when I entered the university in the fall of 
1915, the center of ASUC activities was the high, concrete basement 
of North Hall, which stood where The Bancroft Library now stands. 
The student book store occupied the south end of the basement, 
the Daily Californian and other student offices, the north end. 
In between was an area known as "The Joint." It contained a 
barber shop, a shoe shine stand and a lunch counter. "The Joint" 
was sacred to the men students . Women students who did not live 
near enough to walk home for lunch, either carried it, or went to a 
public restaurant off campus. 

It was not until 1923, when Henry Morse Stephens Hall, the 
first student union, was built, that there was a centrally located 
lunch counter, on campus, open to both men and women. 

Riess: Was Dean Stebbins militant, would you say? 

Dornin: I wouldn't say so, because of all the gentle and sweet-tempered 

people you ever met in your life, it was Lucy Stebbins. She wasn't 
the kind that was militant, but she was concerned. That's a better 
word for it. She was very concerned over the place that the women 
had on the faculty. 

Of course, when The Faculty Club was formed, there weren't so 
many women on the campus. But by 1913 or so, when she became dean, 
there were, oh, 4,800 students on the campus, of which perhaps 
eighteen hundred were women. So, I think she was one of the first 
people who began to think about it. And, as I say, these library 
women were talking about it . 

Now, Mrs. Agnes Fay Morgan Agnes Fay Morgan was 

assistant professor in the Division of Nutrition in the College of 
Agriculture, and when it became a department, and can:^ into the 
College of Letters and Science, she became head of the department 
she had a Ph.D., which Miss Coulter didn't have, and neither did 
Miss Stebbins. She had a Ph.D. , so she could stand up a little bit 


Dornin: Then, there was also Dr. [Jessica] Peixotto, with a Ph.D. in 

economics. She was the first woman to become a full professor, in 
1918. Now, that was just about the time when they were talking 
about building the Women's Faculty Club. Here she was, a full 
professor, and she couldn't go to The Faculty Club. So she had some 
reason to feel that way. So did Dr. Bridgman, who was an M.D. and 
a Ph.D. She came on the campus in 1915 in the Department of 
Psychology, Olga Bridgman. 

Riess : Did these women want the club as a residence, or was a place to 

Dornin: A place to meet. How much they talked about residence, I don't 

know. None of them that I've spoken about so far ever lived in the 
place. They had homes of their own. 

I was just a student in 1919 when they were talking about it. 
In 1923, when it was built, I was off the campus. You see, I 
started to get a secondary credential, for teaching, but then when 
I was a junior the Library School was established. By that time I 
had enough work in libraries to know that I liked that very much. 
I wasn't so sure I was going to like teaching, but when I first 
came in, there wasn't much else open; there were so few jobs open 
to women then. 

When I first came to the University, Mr. [Joseph C.] Rowell was 
the librarian. When he retired in 1919, Mr. [Harold] Leupp was made 
librarian. Mr. [Sidney B.] Mitchell was ambitious to be something 
better than head of the order department, but Mr. Leupp and 
Mr. Mitchell were too near the same age for Mr. Mitchell to stand 
around waiting for Mr. Leupp to retire, so he had to do something on 
his own, either leave Berkeley, which he didn't want to do, or find 
another position. At the time, there were no accredited library 
schools west of the Mississippi River. Here was an opportunity for 
Mr. Mitchell to establish a library school at the University of 
California. However, such a proposal would have to meet the approval 
of both the Academic Senate and the Board of Regents, and a great 
deal of preliminary planning would have to be done. Mr. Mitchell 
must have had this idea in mind for a long, long time and have done 
his "home work," so to speak. 

When the Announcement of Courses for the fall semester 1919 
appeared that summer, there was the addition of a Department of 
Library Science in the College of Letters and Science, with 
Mr. Mitchell as chairman of the department. 

Up to this point, I had not thought of becoming a librarian. 
But with the opportunity suddenly in front of me, knowing that I 
definitely liked the work and was not so sure of teaching, I went 
after it. Eventually, I received a certificate in librarianship in 


Dornin: June, 1922. There were two or three jobs open on the library staff. 
I had been a student assistant for seven years and worked in almost 
every department. I hoped for one of the jobs, but Mr. Leupp said 
his library "was not a finishing school for Mr. Mitchell's library 
students." So, I had to get out and "cut my library teeth" on a 
job outside. 

Riess: And when did you get back to Berkeley? 

Dornin: In February, 1926, there was a senior assistant job in the catalog 
room. I was still in my twenties, and it was unusual nobody was a 
senior assistant at that time until she was thirty-five years old 
but I think that Miss Gunthorp was behind it. 

Riess: And were you invited to join the Women's Faculty Club, as a senior 
assistant librarian? 

Dornin: Yes. But this was one thing that I thought was strange about the 
club: they were so keen on getting things done for the women, 
but they were awfully snooty about who came into the club. The 
junior assistants were not invited. But I was invited. 

Riess: Was it a formal invitation? 

Dornin: No, I think Miss Christine Price, who was also a senior cataloger, 

came and asked me if I wouldn't like to join. But at the time I was 
supporting my mother, taking care of her, and keeping house, and 
joining a club was too much. So I said, "No." I didn't join the 
club until 1947, after my mother's death. As long as she lived, I 
had her to take care of, so I didn't feel I could go into a club and 
do club work. 

2) Life Inside the Women's Faculty Club 

Riess: What would club work be? 

Dornin: They would ask you to be on committees, and when they had parties 

they would expect you to attend. You'd have to take part in the club 

Riess: The members were all involved? 

Dornin: They had to be, to keep it going. They only had sixty-six members 
to begin with, and that's not enough to keep a club going unless 
they're all helping out some way or other with more than just dues. 


Dornin: Of course, when they built the building they had the two floors for 
living quarters . Then they began taking in some other people from 
outside, people who came from other institutions on sabbatical 
leaves, for instance. But in the beginning they must have all had 
to help out, one way or another. 

Very shortly after I returned to Berkeley, in the summer of 
1926, the Department of Librarianship was advanced to graduate 
status and became the School of Librarianship in the Graduate 
Division, with Mr. Mitchell as dean of the school. While I don't 
remember being conscious of this, Mr. Mitchell must have been working 
half-time as head of the order department in the University Library 
and half-time as the chairman of the Department of Librarianship, 
for he now resigned from the library staff. We gave him a farewell 
party which was held in the Women's Faculty Club. 

It was a joint dinner for Mr. Mitchell and Miss Pauline 
Gunthorp who was retiring as head of the catalog department. I can 
remember getting ready for that, because after all those years of 
lettering on the back of books and things, I could print quite 
nicely, so I printed all the place cards for the party. It was a 
big party, and filled all the main dining room. I don't know 
where the residents went! I laughs] But that's about the first time 
I can really remember going inside the club. 

Riess: When you felt free to join the club, did you immediately apply for 

Dornin: Well, this was an accident, as so many of things in my life seem to 
be. Miss Price was wanting to take three months leave and go to 
Europe, and she wanted to sublet her room in the club. (She was 
one of the few that went there to live.) So she came to me. She 
had a very nice room very nicely furnished. She said, "I think you 
would take care of my things, because I see that you take care of 
your own things." She knew that my mother had died, just the end of 
January, and she asked if I wanted to sublet her room for March, 
April, and May. This was ideal for me. 

The next day I went to see Mr. Donald Coney, who had succeeded 
Mr. Leupp as head librarian, to ask if I could transfer my month's 
summer vacation time to February, in order to clear the rented house 
in which my mother and I had lived. Then I went across campus t= 
the Women's Faculty Club to meet the manager, whose name " have 
forgotten, although I can remember what she looked like, and to leave 
an application for membership. (My membership card is dated Feb. 25, 
1947 and is signed by Emily G. Palmer, secretary). All went we: 
I moved out of my former home and into the Women's Faculty :iub on 
the last day of February 1947, little thinking I would remain there 
just three months short of twenty-five years. 


Dornin: I already knew several of the residents in addition to Miss Price 
Miss Ida Secrist, Mrs. Mary B. Davidson, Mrs. Amy B. Bumstead and 
Miss Katherine R. Wickson. I was cordially welcomed, and very soon 
I realized I liked the place immensely. 

Riess : Mrs. Davidson was there. 

Dornin: Yes, she had been assistant dean of women from 1911 on, but she 
didn't live in the club in the early days. 

Riess: What was she like? 

Dornin: She had her way. Things that we did that she didn't like, she told 
us so. Miss Stebbins went out in 1936 as dean of women, so Mrs. 
Davidson had been dean of women for ten years in 1946. So, you see, 
the power was there. Oh, you always had to think what Mrs. Davidson 
would like! 

Now, for instance, the cat came there after I had been there a 
while, Hepzibah. Well, I love cats, and she was obviously very 
pregnant, and very young, not even a year old, I think. Poor thing 
had no home. My heart just went out to her, and two or three of the 
other women, same way. Se we began feeding Hepzibah. 

Then, it turned out that Mrs. Davidson liked horses and dogs, 
but she disliked cats, so she wasn't going to have Hepzibah around. 
I said, "If we keep her outdoors can't we have her?" 

"Well, how are you going to keep her outdoors?" 

"We just won't let her in the house. We'll feed her outdoors." 
We had a garden tool room in the basement, under the side porch, and 
I said, "Couldn't she stay there? I'll make a bed for her in the 
garden room" Well, Mrs. Davidson gave in. But that was one incident. 
We always consulted Mrs. Davidson before we made any changes in any 
rules or regulations or anything. 

Riess: Did you meet and make decisions as a group? 

Dornin: Not formally. We talked things over among ourselves. After dinner 
we'd go in the living room and sit there and talk. It would be 
always on the spur of the ^oment. But every decision went through 
the Board of Directors. We residents would submit something to the 
Board of Directors that we'd like to see changed or that we'd like 
to add . 

Riess: But you would act as a group, rather than individuals? 


Dornin: Not formally, in the sense of putting up a notice calling a meeting, 
but casually after dinner. While we all ate dinner about the same 
time, we didn't all eat at the same table. We did have a Family 
Table. You've heard about that. They still have it. But there 
were all sorts of groupings about the room, even some women who 
perhaps had some reading to finish before an evening seminar and 
wanted to sit alone. 

The Family Table was intended for the residents who liked to 
sit together in a friendly group. The seats were usually filled, 
but not always by the same people, for outside members were welcome, 
if there was room when they came in. It was a case of "First come, 
first seated." 

In conversations matters might come up about the club house, 
and here is where there would be a division of interest. Naturally, 
the outside members and the temporary members would not be as 
interested in household matters as the permanent members, so instead 
of boring them, one of us would speak up, "Oh, let's talk about that 
after dinner." 

Riess : And the women who were not residents? 

Dornin: They would not stay. They would go to their homes, or very often 
they might have a meeting on the campus. That would be one of the 
reasons they had come to dinner . 

Riess: Was there any effort made to have at least one resident a member of 
the board? 

Dornin: I don't think it was deliberately done. It very often happened. 

Riess: I love the Hepzibah story. Were there ever any other contretemps 
like that? 

Dornin: She lived there sixteen years, and we let her have three sets of 
kittens, we gave her a chance to know what motherhood was like, 
[laughs] We didn't have any more animals after her. 

Riess: With people living in such close quarters for so long were there 
problems of noise, odd habits, smoking? 

Dornin: I don't remember anything of that sort when I first went there. All 
the women had been there for quite a while and such problems had been 

When I first went there, it was the ideal solution for me. I 
had looked for apartments in Berkeley, but it was awfully hard to 
find a place to live just then for it was right after World War II 
and all the Gl's were coming backthe town was swarming with them. 


Dornin: So I went to the manager after I knew I liked the club, and asked if 
there would be a chance to come in as a regular resident after Miss 
Price came back in June. It seemed there was one resident who was 
finishing a sabbatical leave from another university, but she would 
not be leaving until the end of July. There was one small room which 
had windows only to the north and was generally used as a guest room. 
The manager thought I might be allowed to use that for the month of 
July, if the Board of Directors accepted me as a full time resident. 
Then, I could move in the bigger room in August. By this time, 
other members of the club had met me, and I guess I fitted in. If 
the board had anyone on a waiting list I don't know, for I was 

I had the room over Mrs. Davidson's, the northwest corner, with 
a view of Strawberry Creek and the men's club, and the garden. It 
was a very nice room, a single, and I shared a bath with Agnes 
McLellan, who was in the Department of Home Economics. We got along 
perfectly all right, only Agnes would go home in the summer and so 
I always had these strangers to share with during the summer sessions. 
Then in the summer of 1950 Christine Price retired and went to live 
in the Sequoias, Portola Valley. She had a room on the northeast 
corner, a single with a bath, so I asked for it and I got it. 

Riess: Who were your very good friends in the club at that point? 

Dornin: My best friend in the club all along was Lucille Czarnowski. She 

was a teacher of dance in the Physical Education Department for Women. 
She was a senior supervisor that was what they were called. 

Riess: Do you have any recollections of great highs and lows in food and 
management over the years? 

Dornin: The food, I think, was pretty steady , reasonably good. 

Riess: You had lunches and dinners there. 

Dornin: Oh, I just lived there, morning, noon, and night. 

Riess: New managers must have influenced some sorts of change in cuisine. 

Dornin: Well, I'm not hard to please when it comes to food. To me it was 

The only thing I can remember with managers was when we got the 
[Gaston] Abbos. Then it was a little troublesome, because that was 
the first time we'd ever had a man living in the club. We had a 
student houseboy down in the basement, but he came and went through 
his own door . But Mr . Abbo , and Mrs . Abbo , took two rooms and made 
them into an apartment. And Abbo was around the place all the time, 
and he was a Frenchman [laughs]. We had a little trouble getting 
used to Mr. Abbo. 


Riess : 


Riess : 


As residents were you aware of the financial chaos under the Abbo 

Yes, but I was on the board then, so I knew what was going on. I 
think if I had been just living there well, I don't know. Of course 
those things spread around the house, and it was talked about, but 
I don't think I would have worried about it. 

Getting back to the residents. 
Smoking? Drinking? 

I asked you about noise and so on? 

Well, considering there were twenty-four residents in the house, all 
busy people, coming and going their various ways, I would say it was 
remarkably peaceful. However, it was a wooden building and when it 
was put up, perhaps there were not funds for the extras, such as 
sound proofing, for the walls and floors could have been thicker. 
I lived in two different rooms on the third floor at opposite ends 
of the building. In each case, the woman underneath me was quiet in 
her movements. However, I knew when she had company, or was talking 
on the phone. I couldn't understand the words 7 but the sound of 
voices was audible. The same with the radio. I think all the women 
were conscious of this, and tried to be considerate of each other, 
not talking loudly in the halls, or turning a radio up to a high 

It was outside that there was chaos! For between the late 1940s 
and the late 1960s, the university was catching up on a building 
program that had been postponed during the decade of the Great 
Depression of the 1930s, and the five years of World War II immediately 
following. All around the northern, eastern, and southern sides of 
the campus there was steel and concrete construction going on, but 
it was worst in the central campus, by the two faculty clubs, for 
there the original buildings had to be demolished to make room for 
the bigger, new buildings, and some of those had been very solidly 
built of brick, and were hard to knock down. 

There were no problems with smoking that I can remember. While 
a number of the residents did smoke, they were considerate of those 
who did not, and when they were in the building confined it to their 
rooms. While I was there, although there were no signs posted, 
there was no smoking in the public rooms of the first floor. 

As to drinking for the first few years I was there, if any of 
the residents did like a cocktail, or a glass of sherry before 
dinner, she was very discreet about it, for I never knew who she 
was. Certainly, I never saw alcohol on the tables in the main 
dining room, or served in the lounge. But somewhere along in the 
mid-1950s, the attitude toward wine at meals began to change. It 
may have been due to the influx of university people from western 
Europe to whom wine was as customary a beverage at dinner as 


Dornin: water was to an American. Exactly when it first began, or who 

started it, I have forgotten. But once started, it gradually spread, 
and by the end of that decade, it was no longer unusual. However, 
all the years I was there, I don't think the club itself bought and 
served wine, or any other alcoholic drink. Those who wanted it, 
bought it, brought it in, served and took away the empties. This 
was to keep temptation away from the student help in the kitchen 
and dining room, so I understood. 

Riess: In general people worked well together? 

Dornin: Yes, very. Of course, in the daytime we were all away, all working. 

Riess: Did people keep track of each other? For instance, what if someone 
had been absent at breakfast? 

Dornin: Oh yes, if you didn't come to breakfast, somebody would come looking 
for you, either one of your best friends, or the manager. In fact, 
the first day I was there the manager came upstairs to take me down 
to breakfast to introduce me at the breakfast table. A new member 
was always introduced . 

3) Committee Work 

Riess: You were a member of the club's library committee. What did you do? 

Dornin: Yes, and it's funny, I can't seem to remember buying any books for 
that library, at all! But people gave us books, the members of the 
club, and people outside, not residents, but faculty members. I 
remember Miss [Hope] Gladding, for instance, was always giving us 
books. Part of the work of the library committee was to keep the 
books in order. So once a week or so I'd "read the shelves" to see 
that everything was in place. We didn't have rules about times [of 
borrowing] so they kept them out as long as they pleased, which 
could be unfortunate. So we would write the borrower a note asking 
her to please bring it back because so-and-so would like to read it. 

Riess: And you were on the house committee. 

Dornin: That was a committee to see that the rules of the house are observed, 
to see that people got along, if there are quarrels [laughs]. Or if 
there was some question about a leak in the roof, the house committee 
would take that in hand, you see, tell the manager to get a plumber. 

Riess: You were on a committee in 1958 to consider some question of length 
of residence. What was the issue there? 


Dornin: What came up in 1958? We had one dear, elderly woman, Miss Sarah 

Davis, who had been in the Physical Education Department for Women. 
She was in her eighties, and I think we were getting worried about 
her. See, we didn't have any medical service or anything like that, 
We were right across the street from Cowell Hospital, but we didn't 
have any connection with Cowell. I think it may have been a matter 
of should we allow people to stay in the club past the time of 
retirement, because there had been several women up to that time 
who did stay well past the time of retirement. 

That's one of the reasons I got out myself when I did, because 
I just had that feeling of the writing on the wall, so to speak: 
"I wish Miss Dornin would hurry up and leave, so we don't have to 
ask her to." 

Riess : 
Riess : 



Riess : 

Dornin: s : 

What year was that? 
In October 1971. 

lot of things were happening in those years. 

This was when they were beginning to talk about letting men in the 
club, which I didn't like. I wasn't against men coming there for 
dinner, but I didn't want them living in the club. 

In February 1971 you were on a committee to consider having a center 
for continuing opportunities for women [located] in the Women's 
Faculty Club. 

Oh, they were to have an office, yes. Yes, but to have that coming 
and going all that noise! 

Your committee approved it. 

Let me see those minutes, [reads] Well, I guess we did, all right. 
But where could we ever have put them? 

There must have been other things besides the handwriting on the 
wall, besides just the fact that I was getting too old to stay, 
because I was definitely getting unhappy. 

Would you describe some of the club nights, the parties and dinners? 

Oh, the annual dinners were great fun, especially as long as Miss 
Stebbins was the chairman. She was the chairman for a long, long 
time. We always wore full evening dress to the annual dinners. She 
would come in, and we'd be sitting there, all of us with our very 
best clothes, with a new hairdo and everything else, and she would 
stand up there and look over us all and before she said anything 
[formal] about welcoming, she would say, "I have never seen such a 
wonderful-looking group of women." Then she would go on with the 
business. After she stopped, the later presidents of the club took 
over, but they never had quite the same spirit that Miss Stebbins had. 


Riess: I thought Miss Stebbins was president only until 1941. 

Dornin: Yes, but she was chairman of the dinner for quite a while afterward. 

Of course, we were all just fixed up to the nth degree. After 
she stopped being chairman we kept on having evening clothes for a 
couple of years, and then somebody came in a dress that was to here 
(midcalf) and well, the formal dressing just went down. Gradually. 

Riess: As well as those traditions, you also had holiday traditions in the 
club, didn't you? 

Dornin: Yes, on Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's. Breakfast 

on these mornings was a festive occasion, prepared and served by the 
residents themselves in the lounge before a crackling fire. 

Card tables were placed together in a square "C" before the 
fireplace. Dennison paper tablecloths and napkins, with designs 
appropriate to the season, and lighted candles gave a holiday 
atmosphere . 

We did not attempt a fancy breakfast, but touched up familiar 
dishes by marinating grapefruit halves in apple cider overnight, and 
topping each one with a maraschino cherry. Eggs were scrambled with 
cream, and hot cross buns, or some variety of sweet rolls, warmed in 
the oven, substituted for toast. 

With the maids and kitchen staff on holiday too, we had the 
place to ourselves, and became an extended family having a whale of 
a good time. The building usually cleared on the afternoons and 
evenings of the main holidays, but Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve 
often found six or eight residents with nowhere to go. About eight 
o'clock a fire would be started in the lounge fireplace. When it 
had burned down to hot coals, we would assemble to pop corn (often 
a pastime new to a foreign resident), drink apple cider, listen to 
the holiday music on the radio, and talk of Christmas and New 
Year's traditions in other lands. Off to bed eventually, closer 
friends, with happy memories to cherish. 

4) Special Visitors to the Club 

Riess: What about other dinners and special events? 

Dornin: Now and again there would be some famous woman come to the campus 
whom we wanted to entertain. She was lecturing on the campus and 
we wanted to do something, so we would have a dinner. 


The woman who wrote Mary Poppins [Pauline Travers] came to the club 
and stayed with us a few days about a year or so before I left. 
She came to the campus because she was giving lectures on folklore. 
I asked her, so long as she was with us, if one of the nights when 
she was free from lecturing, she would sit in the living room and 
talk to us, "Just talk to us, tell us about yourself and what you've 
done, how you wrote Mary Poppins and so on." 

Well, she was a charming woman. We sat round the fireplace. 
The girls came downstairs. This was no fancy party, we just talked. 
We asked her questions, and I told her some of the folklore of the 
campus, which she hadn't heard. She told us how she had become 
interested in folklore and so on. It was one of the most delightful 
evenings we had in the whole time I was there! So much better than 
a formal party. 

Do you recall other interesting visitors? 

[following material added later] Since I had not traveled widely 
before coming to the Women's Faculty Club, one of the most attractive 
things about it to me was the chance to meet women from other parts 
of the United States and from abroad who were temporary residents. 
"Temporary" meant anywhere from a six weeks summer session to four 
years required for a doctorate. 

When I first arrived in 1947, these were mostly women in 
mid-career who needed advanced university training in order to 
compete for promotion. They were not all in academic fields, however, 
Some were employed by business corporations and were hopefully 
climbing the executive ladder. They came from countries that had 
not been battered by World War II the United States, Canada and 
South America. 

With the 1950s, the tide seemed to turn more towards university 
women from western Europe. They were apt to be younger, some still 
graduate students in their own universities. They had been awarded 
grants established for research projects, especially in public health 
and social welfare, and they registered in these two campus schools, 
both of which seemed to be well known and highly respected worldwide. 

From 1960 on, women began to arrive from Southeast Asia, not in 
the numbers the European women had come, but more than Asian women 
had previously. We had residents from Cambodia, Thailand, and 
Malaya, in addition to Japan and Korea. Again, they registered in 
the School of Public Health, and were supported by grants. 

All these women from Europe and Asia were astonishingly 
proficient in speaking English. It may have been one of the reasoi , 
for their being chosen for grants in the first place. It was 
certainly the main reason for the quick formation of friendships 
and the lively and interesting conversation around the Family Table. 


Dornin: They found the Berkeley campus an exciting place to be during those 
years, for the university was one of the leaders in developing uses 
for atomic energy. Hardly a day seemed to pass without the 
announcement of a new discovery, or a breakthrough in some branch 
of learning. 

They also found California lived up to the brag in genial 
climate and scenic beauty, but that there were surprises. One of 
these was the vast distances (to them) Californians drove so 
matter-of-factly, when they were taken on a weekend outing to Yosemite, 
Lake Tahoe, or the Mendocino redwoods. 

There was the middle-aged professor from the University of 
Madrid, who was resident during a fall semester when California had 
a championship football team which won the bid to the Rose Bowl 
game on New Year's Day. The campus was in a froth of excitement. 
She could understand this among the students, but why the faculty 
and staff, adult individuals with a serious purpose in life, seemed 
to be similarly infected was beyond her. Then she heard us planning 
on staying overnight in Santa Barbara on the trip to and from the 
game. Her eyes widened. "How far is this Pasadena from Berkeley?" 
she asked. Someone shrugged a casual, "Oh, four hundred miles." 

"Four hundred miles!" (a pause while she mentally changed miles 
into meters) "Why, that's the distance from Madrid to Paris, and 
no one travels from Madrid to Paris and back for a football game!" 

Summer sessions brought school teachers by the dozen to Berkeley, 
mainly from the United States. Nearly always there were nuns from 
the College of Holy Names in neighboring Oakland, so we were 
accustomed to the sight of them on the campus. 

However, in the summer of 1960, we were not prepared to have one 
in residence from a convent in Illinois. She was pleasant, although 
sedate in manner, and at first we were awkward, feeling she 
expected certain courtesies with which we were not familiar, other 
than addressing her as "Sister." Probably, she was experienced in 
adjusting to the outside world, for she went her way quietly and 
we went ours. We became used to the swish of her long skirts in 
the halls, and the sight of the black habit and stiff, white coif 
at the dining table, but we were never quite at ease with her. 

She must have found us agreeable, however, for the next summer 
she was back with a companion. This one was short, plump, and 
pretty, with a bright smile and a twinkle in her eye. She was a 
teacher in a parochial high school for boys in New Jersey, and had 
registered for a class in the elements of atomic energy, of all 
things. When she told us at the end of the first day that she was 
the only woman in the class, we wondered how she would get along. 
Would the men shy away from her black habit, and leave her to solve 


problem sets on her own? We needn't have worried. The grapevine 
in due time informed us that she was the delight of the faculty, she 
had an excellent mathematical mind and was one of the best students 
in the class. Her quick wit kept tham all chuckling. She kept us 
chuckling too, and that summer slid by all too quickly. 

So, when the third summer brought us five nuns, the original 
two, and three more from the Midwest, we took it in stride. But 
this time, we were the ones to be surprised. There had been a 
change of thought at the Vatican during the year. Only one of the 
nuns wore the classic habit. The others were in greatly modified 
habits that resembled the Quaker dress, or that of early New England 
Puritans. In their relief from the weight of yards of heavy serge, 
and the confinement of the starched coif that permitted them to 
see only straight ahead, they acted almost like girls. 

Not that they forgot their religious duties. I would be nearly 
ready to go down to breakfast and would glance out my north window 
to see them returning from early mass at the Newman Club, the student 
Catholic chapel, which was then located north of the campus. 

In those days, there was a small statue of St. Francis of Assisi 
in the back garden. His cupped, outstretched hand made a drinking 
fountain for the birds. The nun still in the old-time habit asked 
me if I would take a picture of her beside the statue. She was a 
tall, heavy-set woman, and St. Francis was dwarfed beside her, but 
we went ahead. The picture proved to be a good portrait and her 
mother, to whom the picture was sent, was pleased. But I wondered 
if the nun, in her letters home, had not been too enthusiastic 
about this club in which she was spending the summer in the Wild 
West and the mother needed reassurance her daughter was still 
within saintly influences. 

By the time the summer of 1963 rolled around, college campuses 
were beginning to simmer with what was to become the infamous Free 
Speech Movement. One disturbance after another continued all through 
the remainder of the 1960s and our religious residents were seen no 

As residents, when there was someone new, who was out here for a few 
months for research or something, did you reach out and draw that 
person in? 

Well, the atmosphere of the club was the minute they got there, 
the first dinner they had with us, or the first breakfast, why they 
were friends. We went and talked in their rooms; they came to our 
rooms . 


Dornin: There was only one person that we ever had with whom we really had 
trouble, a poor overweight soul who wanted to study for a Ph.D. in 
biology. This woman, the first thing she did when she moved in was 
to fill the service refrigerator on her floor with food. She was 
eating all the time, a compulsive eater! She was unpleasant about 
everything. When she didn't make her grades to get her Ph.D. 
candidacy, everyone was "agin" her. 

She had a room that didn't have a large enough easy chair, so 
I went downtown to try and buy a larger chair. I got her an over 
stuffed chair. But it rocked, and she didn't like that. I also got 
a cover for her bed, to replace one she didn't like, and she didn't 
like it either! 

5) Friends and Residents 


Riess : 
Dornin: : 

Who comes to mind instantly in your happy memories of the club? 

Well, of course Margaret Murdock. She did everything she could 
possibly do for the club. After her retirement, she worked in the 
office; she did things outside to help out the club, such as 
fundraising. She lived there for a while. I think she would have 
stayed there, except she liked to play the piano, and she always 
played it on Saturday afternoon. Well, this may have been a point 
of dissension during a period before I came, because she used to 
play, and some woman, perhaps somebody above her because the piano 
was in the main room where it is now this person complained that 
every Saturday afternoon was "full of Bach." 

So, you think of Margaret Murdock. 

She comes first. Then the other is "Smitty" [Josephine Smith]. 

People actually called her "Smitty?" 

We always called her "Smitty," 
the woman she lived with was 
by their first names. "Smitty 
Christmas cards to "Smitty and 
the women's advocates [means, 
women only] . When the club 
there. It was her field, you 
all about budgeting. She was 

never Josephine. Everybody did. And 
Albro" [Mary Albro], Never called them 
and Albro." In fact, I addressed 
Albro, Inc." She was another one of 
advocate of keeping the club for 
needed a bookkeeper, Smitty was right 
see, in the university. She knew 
President Sproul's budget clerk. 


Are there any others that you think of? 


Dornin: Marian Moore. She worked over in Cowell Hospital with the students, 
social worker I think is what they called her. She did beautiful 
sewing, and she would make us curtains; if our curtains began to 
wear out, she would make us a whole new set of curtains for the 
living room. She was always doing something of that sort. 

Really, there were dozens who were especially interesting. 
Let me mention some as examples or types of what kind of people we 
had, rather than as better than others. I hope people who read this 
history will understand what I mean. 

For instance, we had Miss Madi Bacon, who came from Vienna 
where everyone seems to be born talented in music. Madi became 
interested in helping the San Francisco Opera Company in training 
a few young boys to sing in the two or three operas which contained 
parts for young voices. They did so well that before it seemed 
possible Madi was the founder, director and conductor of the San 
Francisco Boys Chorus, now one of the city's treasured institutions. 

Miss Chiyoko Tokunaga from Japan came to Berkeley to study 
genetics. She remained on the campus to become a research associate 
under Kurt Stern in the University's Virus Laboratory. She bought 
a home in north Berkeley and continues to serve the University as 
an interpreter and campus escort for distinguished Japanese visitors. 

Dr. Ruth Stewart, a native of upstate New York and a trained 
nurse, who had spent several years as a Methodist medical missionary 
in Korea, lived at the club when she was at Berkeley to study for a 
Ph.D. in public health. Upon receiving her degree, she returned to 
Korea as an associate professor in the Department of Preventive 
Medicine and Public Health at Yonsei University. She has also 
become noted as the author of two books of short stories which 
reflect the resilience of the Korean people under all sorts of 
conditions . 

Another illustrious resident was the Honorable Elsa Mois, a 
lawyer from Denmark, who spent some time at Berkeley's Boalt Hall 
of Law. A year after she returned to Denmark, we received word she 
had been appointed to a judgeship. 

Riess: The name Mary Floyd Williams came up in a letter in 1946 about 

whether or not to floodlight the club for protection of residents 
coming home at night. 

Dornin: Miss Mary Floyd Williams, now she was a character! She was here 
when I came. She wrote books. She wrote A Book, I should say! 
(Fortune, Smile Once More, a story about early San Francisco) 
Mary Floyd I think was one of the women who they brought in from the 
Town and Gown Club very early because they needed more members. 


Dornin: I knew Mary Floyd! She was writing this book, and she had a room 
over the garden and you'd hear her typewriter going. You'd hear 
"tap tap tap tap tap tap" and you'd look up and see Mary Floyd 
working away. She was an elderly woman by the time I got there, 
maybe in her middle-eighties. She hadn't been away from the club 
too long when she died, at ninety-something. 

Riess: Another resident in 1946 was Miss Agnes McLellan. 

Dornin: Yes, as I have said, she was my bathroom mate in the beginning. 
She was in home economics, She was very nice, a sweet girl, but 
not a lively one. We lost her in 1953, when most of the College of 
Agriculture departments, including her field, home economics, were 
moved to the Davis campus . 

Riess: Miss Edith Pickard. 

Dornin: Yes, she was a teacher over at San Francisco State. She was a 

regular member, but she commuted back and forth to San Francisco, 
until the college moved way out to Stonestown. She was trying to 
get a Ph.D. in zoology; that's how she got into the club in the 
beginning, as a Ph.D. student. She was trying very hard to get 
this Ph.D. with Professor [Charles A.] Kofoid. Well, he died just 
after she completed her thesis and none of the other professors 
felt he knew enough about the particular fish she was writing about 
for her thesis, and none of them would take her on, so she never got 
her Ph.D. I think it was one of the meanest things that the faculty 
did. They could have accepted what she had done; even if they didn't 
know every little tiny thing about that fish, they must have known 
enough about fishes in general to know whether she was doing a good 
piece of work or not. And certainly Kofoid wouldn't have taken her 
on as a Ph.D. student if she wasn't a fine student! Well, that's 
where your macho comes in again; a man student would have been 
helped someway to get that degree. 

Riess: It must have been interesting to have that mix of students with the 

Dornin: It was, because you learned a lot about what it meant to drudge 
through a Ph.D. They had very little social life. 

Riess: Was there a curfew for the club? 

Dornin: No, we all had keys. But there was a woman professor who came 

from England one summer who came in at two o'clock in the morning. 
[laughs] She came from one of the women's universities connected 
with Oxford. She was well known in her field and she was taken out 
by the entire group of the younger English professors, and I think 
they had taken her over to North Beach and gone from one place to 
another, and she was so drunk! It was terrible. 



Riess : 



We heard her coming home. An automobile drove up, and we heard her 
getting out of the car. "I can walk myself." Then the men trvjaj 
to pursuade her to let them help her in the house. Finally she fat 
in the house, and then she had to come up two flights of stairs. 
We could hear her coming up the stairs, thump, thump, thump. 
Staggering down the hall. And then into her room, bang! 

Well, of course everyone was scared to go in, but what if 
had hurt herself, or hit her head on the table, or something. SB 
we went downstairs to the office, got the master key, and peeked it, 
and she was lying flat on the floor. Oh, my gosh! That was one rf 
the meanest tricks they could have done, a decent woman, to take ier 
and do something like that. Probably one drink was enough. 

She was a very interesting woman, but eccentric in her 
appearance, which was probably what led the men on. 

Did she come down to breakfast the next day? 

No, and the maid didn't know anything about it and went up to clem 
her room in the middle of the morning and she was still lying there. 
[laughs] It was awfully funny, but at the same time it was kind of 
shocking that the faculty would be so mean to do a thing like that. 

We have just a minute more, 
memories of the club? 

Anyone else come to mind in your 

Mrs. Amy Bumstead. After Mr. Mitchell became the dean of the 
Library School in 1926, Mr. Frank M. Bumstead became the head of the 
order department. About fifteen years later, he died of tubero- 
losis, which was unfortunate. It was a very, very happy marriage. 
After he died, she [Amy Bumstead] began working for the ASUC, and 
she came to live at the Women's Faculty Club. 

She was a darling, a dear little woman, a little bit of a tfeatg. 
Her brother was Professor Harold Bruce of the English Department. 
She was just all heart, would do anything for anybody. She had z 
car, and I didn't, so anytime I wanted to go anywhere, she'd drim. 
In fact, she drove me on one trip way up into Canada. Because she 
was so kind, other people naturally reflected that. You felt, 
goodness, she's so nice, I've got to be, I can't be unpleasant Ji 
the face of this wonderful woman, whio* she was. The early 
1950s, when they were building Carmel Valley Manor, was the time 
that she decided it was time that she left [the Women's Faculty 


6) Early Surroundings of the Women's Faculty Club 
[added later by Miss Dornin] 

Dornin: I got to thinking of how crowded the area about the Women's Faculty 
Club is now, and how open it used to be, and I thought you might 
be interested to know that the club had a street number once. When 
the Women's Faculty Club was built in 1923, it was assigned the 
address "2200 College Avenue," although its main entrance faced 
south on Sylvan Way . 

Current maps of the city of Berkeley showed a road entering 
the northeastern part of the University of California campus from its 
boundary street , Hearst Avenue at La Loma Avenue . The road passed 
Founders' Rock, and descended steeply past the Hearst Mining Build 
ing and the original Chemistry Building to cross the campus bridge 
at Strawberry Creek and meet the first block of College Avenue, 
the southern boundary of the campus . 

The first block of College Avenue extended south to Bancroft 
Way. Here, the street made a twenty-foot jog to the west and 
continued south in a straight line to the Berkeley-Oakland line. 

Since Berkeley's numbering system for north-south streets 
begins at the city's north boundary and proceeds southward, the 
number "2200" indicated College Avenue began in the center of the 

Sylvan Way was a narrow road which ran west from College 
Avenue along side the original southern boundary of the campus to 
meet Telegraph Avenue where it began at Sather Gate. 

For some years, the University had been gradually purchasing 
the land between its southern boundary and Bancroft Way and west of 
College Avenue. When the Women's Faculty Club was built, the 
university already owned all of the west side of the first block 
of College Avenue. Across Sylvan Way, at 2220 College Avenue, was 
the students' infirmary, a former private residence remodeled and 
enlarged for this use. 

Beyond the infirmary lay the women's playing field and swimming 
pool, both under the jurisdiction of the Deparr*r.ant of Physical 
Education for Women. The playing field was surrounded by a high, 
board fence; the swimming pool was indoors in an annex to Hearst 
Hall, the original gymnasium for women. 

Beautiful Hearst Hall, designed by Bernard Maybeck, one of 
Berkeley's most famous architects, had been burned to the ground, 
presumably by an arsonist, in the spring of 1922. It's burned-out 
foundations were still evident. 


Dornin: The corner block of land extending down Bancroft Way a couple of 
hundred feet was occupied by the university tennis courts. The 
east side of the block was still private property, occupied by family 
homes and a fraternity house. The street still belonged to the City 
of Berkeley. 

On September 17, 1923, a third of Berkeley, north of the 
university campus and east of Shattuck Avenue, was devastated by a 
raging fire, driven by a fierce north-east wind. As this part of 
the city was rebuilt, and a considerable number of apartment houses 
replaced single family homes, the traffic along College Avenue and 
across the upper campus road increased steadily until it became a 
noisy throughfare. 

To the residents of the Women's Faculty Club, once secure in 
their peacefull dell, this was a catastrophe. Miss Christine Price, 
of the university library staff, would come to work complaining 
bitterly of her loss of sleep due to the shifting into low gear, 
particularly by trucks as they crossed the Strawberry Creek bridge 
and began the long grind up the steep slope to Founders' Rock. 

There were no funds for new road construction during the 
Depression years of 1930, and those of World War II that followed 
immediately. It was not until 1946 uhat money became available, 
and the campus road was realigned to the left as it passed Founders' 
Rock, and contoured on a much easier grade directly below the Greek 
Theatre, and around the Big Chill to meet the first block of 
Piedmont Avenue, the street east and above College Avenue. Named 
Gayley Road for a former, famous campus professor of English 
literature, it became the permanent access road across the upper 
campus, and peace returned to the Women's Faculty Club. The old 
road was torn up, and the terrain it occupied was bulldozed into 
sites for new science and engineering buildings . 

Meanwhile, changes had been taking place on the first block of 
College Avenue. William Randolph Hearst, son of Mrs. Pheobe A. 
Hearst, had given the University funds for a new gymnasium for women, 
in memory of his mother. A site for this was chosen on Bancroft 
Way, opposite Bowditch Street, and it was completed in 1927. 

The old swimming pool and athletic field which had been in use 
by the women students ever since Hearst Hall had burned, were 
abandoned and unused for several years. In 193A, they were 
converted into a laboratory for research in erosion and tidal 
problems of beaches, harbors and rivers. This was called the 
Hydraulic Model Basin. 


Dornin: In 1930, through a bequest from the estate from Ernest V. Cowell, 
class of 1880, matched with a state bond issue, the University had 
been enabled to purchase land on the east side of College Avenue and 
erect the southern half of Cowell Memorial Hospital. On its comple 
tion, the students' infirmary was razed, and a much needed concrete 
building, called for want of a better name the Temporary Classroom 
Building (now Minor Hall), was built. 

One by one, the pioneer Berkeley homes on the east side of the 
block had become vacant as their owners passed away, and the property 
had either been bequeathed to, or purchased by the University. The 
houses were used as quarters for a spate of "institutes, centers, 
and bureaus" which sprang up following World War II. 

The street itself remained unchanged, and open to traffic 
within the campus until the late 1950s and 1960s, when the campus 
massive building program brought plans for Wurster Hall and Calvin 
Hall, which effectively closed it off. Today, all that remains of 
the 2200 block of College Avenue is the rectangular parking space 
bordered by Cowell Hospital, Calvin Hall, Wurster Hall, Minor Hall, 
and the Women's Faculty Club, while Sylvan Way is only a name on an 
old-time map. 

Transcriber: Suzanne Riess 
Final Typist: Nicole Bouche 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Josephine Miles 

1) The Forties English Department, and the Women's Faculty Club 103 

2) The Dinner Club 1 6 

3) Academic Women 107 

4) The Sixties Saving the Club 110 

5) The Seventies Merger Meetings and Other Meetings 115 

6) The Club for Now, and the Future 119 

Josephine Miles, Professor of English, 1957 


Josephine Miles 

November 24, 1981 

Interviewed in the Private Dining Room of the Women's Faculty Club at Lunch 

1) The Forties English Department, and the Women's Faculty Club 

Riess: Before you joined the Women's Faculty Club, what did you think of it? 

Miles: I never heard of it. 

Riess: What did you think of women faculty, in fact? 

Miles: Not very much. I guess, probably, that is a good place to start. 

When I came to Berkeley in 1934, I had good friends who had 
come up here to do graduate work. I hadn't intended to do graduate 
work. There were women professors at UCLA, all of whom encouraged 
me not to do graduate work; they said I was too poetic a type, and 
not scholarly enough. So, the support I got was from men, and from 
the men who were my colleagues at UCLA, students who came up to 

Then I had some operations that did not work out. I was kind 
of forlorn, and my friends said, "Well, come up and get your M.A. at 
Berkeley. Maybe you could get a job doing research or something 
like that." 

All in the thirties, I never heard of the Women's Faculty Club. 
I didn't know it existed. I could have, but did not get any help 
from women "In that time, like women deans or what have you. There 
were no women in the English Department at all. The English Depart 
ment was extremely nice to me. As you know, in 1940 they asked me 
if I would like to try to teach. I was very admiring of about half 
of the men in the department. I was very loyal to them. So I still 
paid no attention to anything which made me think of the Women's 
Faculty Club. 

Riess: When you say that you did not get any help from women deans, had you 
sought help from women deans? 


Miles: To some degree, yes, in little things, like parking stickers and so 
on. The women, as I remember them in terms of officialdom, were 
rather militant, rigorous not very bending. I provided a lot of 
exceptions that they did not want to have to face. It was so wonder 
ful that the men in the English Department were not like that. They 
let nothing stop them when they decided I should try to teach here. 
Then they did all of these things for me so that I could try. 

Oh, it must have been about four years later I began teaching 
here in 1940 maybe three or four years later, there was a very nice 
woman across the hall from me in Wheeler. Her name was Pauline 
Sperry. She was a professor in mathematics. She would drop by to 
say hello and ask me about my work. She became, really literally, 
the first woman professional of any kind that had ever paid me a 
good word. (Oh, Hildegard Planner, the poet, I should say, is 
another one. She lived still down in Altadena at that time.) 

Pauline was a little waspy creature, very brisk and militantly 
anti-male, She kept telling me that I should join the Women's 
Faculty Club, of which she was an officer. 

I said, "No way, too many steps, too hard to get into. Besides, 
I do not know' why anybody would want to belong to a women's faculty 
club . " 

Riess: Did you and she actually have discussions of male-female issues? 

Miles : No , no . 

Riess: When you say militantly anti-male, how? 

Miles: She would barge up and down the hall saying, "Damn Professor So-and- 
Sol" I would listen and laugh, that is all. 

Then, we had a new chairman in the English Department, rather 
inexperienced. He decided he would make things friendly. (The 
English Department had been rather unorganized for quite a while, 
which I did not know. To me, they seemed very nice.) The chairman's 
name was Jim Cline. He said, "Well, let us have our meeting at the 
Men's Faculty Club."* 

As fate would have it, I was still in my office, ready to go up 
there, and they asked me if I would carry the minutes up. So, I 
carried the minutes and my helper carried me. Two other women who 
were visiting went along. We had no permanent staff, nor was I. We 
were all just visiting lecturers. We went up there, and they would 
not let us in. I guess that begins my interest in the Women's Faculty 

*The Faculty Club. 


Riess : The men in the English Department had been just totally blind to that 

Miles: Yes, they had. They were very nice men, they just were not like 

that. They did not belong to the Men's Faculty Club. There were, 
you see, militants on both sides. I think that there were a number 
of gays in the English Department. They paid no attention to the 
Men's Faculty Club either. I mean, they had another little world of 
their own. I did not bother them, and they did not bother me. 

The macho men in the Men's Faculty Club, they later explained 
we could not come in because we would have to pass a room in which 
they would be wearing tee shirts, or underwear, BVD's, or whatever 
it was in those days. 

Riess: But usually the English Department faculty did not go up to The 
Faculty Club. 

Miles: No, no. They were very surprised. I just gave them the minutes and 
went home. They phoned me later and said, "Oh, what a shame, blah, 
blah, blah, We will not try that again, and so on." I did tell 
this to Pauline Sperry, so that ignited the flames. 

Riess: Did it ignite flames in you? Or was it just amusing? 

Miles: No, it was amusing. Oh, I was a little angry, but not much. I mean, 
you know, I knew lots of men. Lots of men professors were like that 
too. So were a lot of my friends. 

Let us put it this way, I still do not see why men should not 
be able to get together if they want to without women if they just 
had made it a little clearer. As it turned out, they would not let 
any women in that club except in one room. They were very chilling 
about it . That is why the women had to build a club . It was really 
forced on them. I had not realized that before. 

Then Pauline said, "Well, now you see you owe it to women to 
join, even if you never come." 

I said, "Okay. Tell me the dues, and I will give you the check, 
but I am never coming." Not out of any principles, just that it was 
nhysically hard. 


2) The Dinner Club 

Miles: Then she said, "We have this dinner club once a month in which we 
pick people to give research papers, different women. There are 
about twelve women and each one gives a research paper during the 
year. Would you like to come to that?" 

"Oh, great," I said, "I would love to come to that." So they 
invited me. That was some of the most interesting stuff I have ever, 
ever done . 

Riess: That was a club within the club? 

Miles: It was right here in this room. Yes, it was just a dinner club. 

Riess: It was not open to just everyone in the Women's Faculty Club? 

Miles: Well, it might have been. I do not even know. They invited me. 

I do not know whether they would have invited others. I do not know 
how they were comprised. You see, I did not ask many questions, 

Riess: Did they have a name? 
Miles : No . 

I remember the first paper I heard was on the Anopheles mosquito 
by some scientist, biologist. I went home and I told my family, 
"This is where it is at, this Anopheles mosquito, the way you can 
learn enough to know all [there is] about the Anopheles mosquito." 
This is the first time I ever really got interested in research and 
the whole of science. I had done it as a graduate student, but it 
was all related to poetry, it related to my subject matter. 

Riess: Poetry is so open ended. 

Miles: That is right. It did not have this research aspect. Just to show 
you how nice the men in the department were, J.S.P. Tatlock, who was 
a rigorous bibliographer, and who felt that I should earn my living 
working in encyclopedias at the Huntington which was a good practical 
idea when I said that I did not want to work on the medieval Latin 
dictionary, which was his baby, he walked up a steep hill to my 
house bringing me all the medieval Latin stuff that he had found 
in the Rolls Series that dealt with poetry. 

Now, I think that is really creative scholarship! But it only 
partly got to me. I knew he was kind, and I laughed about it and I 
did it. But it was hearing these women talk about their research and 
how exciting it was that really set off the firecrackers. 


Riess: What other women can you remember in that group? 

Miles: Oh, I am embarrassed to say that is the only one I can remember. 

There was a doctor by the name of Joy Bishop I think that was her 
name. She did a paper on something to do with doctoring. There 
were three or four women from nutritional sciences. I just cannot 
remember their names. Ruth Okey was one. They are now up at Davis, 
if they have not retired. There was Alice Tabor in German. That 
was the only arts one, or languages one. Everybody else was science. 
I think Pauline Sperry, the mathematician, was quite a leading factor 
in all this. Oh, yes, there was the famous Emily Huntington, the 
economist. She was, of course, their social leader. Pauline was 
just more of a little intellectual gadfly. 

Riess : The reason there were not more from the arts or the humanities is 
just because there were not any anyway? 

Miles: There weren't any. Yes, that is part of it. 

3) Academic Women 

Miles: As I probably have explained in other talks at other times, in 1920, 
when World War I was over, there was a great openness to women 
professors. Women had been going to get Ph.D.'s while the men were 
overseas. So here are these women Ph.D.'s, all being gung-ho to be 
scholars. This is the time of the great Margaret Mead, the great 
Ruth Benedict, Martha Beckwith probably other fields too, but I 
happened to meet those anthropology women because they sort of 
congregated out here. 

They scattered through the countryside getting jobs. It was 
very much, in a way, like my getting a job in 1940 because there was 
another war coming along. Then most of those women were advanced, 
as I was too, eventually. So, they became a solid force but a dated 
one*. Let me say, unfortunately, they did not recruit women. They 
themselves enjoyed being, I think, rather singular. 

Riess: But they never felt themselves as underdogs in any way. 

Miles: Well, I am not sure, because I did not talk to them about it. I 

think they felt embattled. I cannot explain it, I was just so loyal 
to my own colleagues. I felt they were embattled; I knew that they 
had fascinating backgrounds. But I mean, I did not ask them for 
their histories around here, whether they had felt hurt or demeaned. 


Miles: All of this came to me later when I just had to join women's caucuses 
because it was so clear that women were being unfairly treated. That 
was very, very hard for me to accept. I just did not want to hear 
about that, because I did not want to hear that some of these men 
were pulling these fast ones. 

You know, I think it was at one time in the 1960s that twenty 
lecturers in the sciences were dismissed, but were told they could 
reapply in the regular channels. (They had just been appointed as 
lecturers.) When they applied to regular channels with all their 
credentials and all their work and all their research, there was 
always one clear negative voice to say "No." So, we did not have a 
chance . 

I saw a movie called "Zoot Suit" last night. It was very much 
like the trial in "Zoot Suit." That is another point. 

Riess : You have stated that men in your experience had been very supportive, 
and women very non-supportive. 

Miles: Also, this is what I found later to be the sad part, I was not 

untypical; the women who were supported by the men did not want to 
go ahead and support other women. I do not blame myself too much 
because I did go out and work hard on the other side. We all gave 
ourselves the impression that it was because we were so good that 
the men supported us. You see, it was all self -f lattery . 

Now, for example, I do not think this is fair or true, but one 
of the deans of women told me once whichever one it was I forget, 

one of the ones around here she said that I had put the cause of 

women in education at the University back fifty years because my 
presence did not raise the crucial issues of, you know, femininity 
and so forth. 

Riess: Well, that must have been a new breed of deans of women. Katherine 
Towle, for instance, where would she stand on this? 

Miles: Well, it was not she. She was a WAC, so she was used to these 

different kinds. It was the one before her. But anyway, their 
point was, and it turned out to be a true one, though it hurt my 
feelings at the time, of course, that the role model issue is very 
important. I did not provide a role model, you see. 

Neither did Pauline, neither did most of these women, because 
they were all exceptional in one way or another. We had no beauti 
ful, urbane, widely-recognized women. Somebody who has somewhat 
played that role lately is Marian Diamond. Even so, she is such an 
exception to some degree, that you have to smile when you say it. 


Miles: This kind of really top flight well, look at the trouble Rose Bird 
is having.* I think she is very attractive and looks like a leader 
to me . 

Riess: What you are talking about is the degree of real femininity, or what? 

Miles: Let us see, what would I say? The absence of threat to men was very 
important. Most of these women that were in this group were no 
threat to men for one reason or another, but they also just never 
asked to be in men's groups. That is still fine with me. 

Riess: Did they talk about any of these things as they sat around this 

Miles: No, no, not with me they did not. Lately, of course, in the 1960s 
we talked about nothing else for ten years , or twenty years . 

Okay, so the Women's Faculty Club then, that dinner meeting, 
those were wonderful. For some reason, I do not remember why, but 
they died out I guess somewhere at the end of the forties . In the 
fifties, again, I never heard of the Women's Faculty Club. Pauline 
was gone. All of these older women were gone. 

They kicked the Nutrition Department up to Davis . I was on the 
committee and they did it in a very unlegal fashion. They wanted to 
get rid of all those women, because it was home ec but it really 
was a woman's issue. [Clark] Kerr said they were not good enough 
for Berkeley. Then he brought in a man nutritionist. Okay, all 
right, I know. Ruth Okey was a nice homebody , you know. She did her 
Ph.D. I remember they built a model house over there. Agnes Fay 
Morgan, by the way, was a real big shot in all this. When Agnes Fay 
Morgan retired or died, whappo , nothing was left of her empire. They 
just wiped it out and sent it up to Davis. Even though the committee 
I was on, everybody supported the keeping of it here, we woke up the 
next year to find it was gone. 

Riess: This is a trend in this university, to remove anything th?t is prac 
tical, home economics, design, drama and the women tend to teach in 
those fields. 

Miles: In some of those fields, right. 

Riess: You have pointed out that 16 percent of the tenured faculty were 

women back in the 1940s as compared to some 3 percent in the early 

Miles: Isn't that frightful? Then in the 1950s everything was very dull. 

California Supreme Court Justice 


4) The Sixties Saving the Club 

Miles: There was a woman whom you probably know, a real pillar of society 

around here, by the name of Elizabeth Scott, in statistics. I asked 
her advice about some statistics once and she was kind of interested 
in what I was doing. We stayed in touch. She is someone you can 
stay in touch with in terms of ideas. [Interruption to discuss 

She [Scott] looked me up and she said, "Have your heard about 
all of .the terrible things that are happening at the Women's Faculty 
Club? Emily Huntington is justly sick of the whole bit and nobody 
is supporting it anymore. She is doing all of the work and a few of 
the board members." 

Riess: Emily Huntington was "justly sick of the whole bit?" 

Miles: Yes, because nobody was doing any work. Mary Lou Norrie, in P.E., 
was the president. Now, this is all second hand because when these 
old gals had gone, I didn't know who was around. Apparently the 
story was that they were going to have a meeting to vote to give the 
Women's Faculty Club to the university. The university had already 
agreed that it was going to use it for carrels for the History 
Department. They could easily and inexpensively make the whole 
building over into carrels. History deeply needed carrels. 

Riess: Everybody was so apathetic that Emily Huntington could by force of 
her own personal persuasion just 

Miles: Almost, almost. 

Riess: What about all of those people who for years have used it as "the 

Miles: That is not true during the fifties. It was very sluggish. One of 
r!ie dangers during the fifties was that there were three or four 
little old ladies who used the club as home. They lived here and 
they used it in every way, and they did not pay much. These were 
honored little old ladies and nobody knew what to do about them. So 
they ran the club straight down the tube, i a m vague because, as I 
say, I was not involved. 

Whenever this was, I can figure it out, when did I write that 

Riess: You wrote a poem about it? 


Miles: Well, no, I wrote this poem called "Saving the Bay" when Elizabeth 
Scott called me up. It was probably the early 1960s, I imagine. 
She said, "Don't you think we ought to fight this? Emily Huntington 
is tired and Mary Lou Norrie is not a fighter. Nobody else knows 
what to do. The women faculty members do not and never have joined 
this thing since the old group. It seems to me that it is important 
in enough ways that we should try to do something." 

We had by that time one tenured woman in the English Department, 
named Anne Middleton. I called up Anne. I think I had gotten her 
to join. So Anne and Betty and I went to this meeting as a group of 
three. Boy, did we sabotage that poor meeting! It turned out the 
people did not want to kill the club. They came to kill it because 
the leadership said it was unviable. Nobody had come to you know, 
you have a board meeting, nobody comes. You have a membership 
meeting, nobody comes. You know, that can be pretty awful. 

So we spoke up in the other direction and said what might be 
done. We might get Pry tanean's help, we might get this women's 
center's help. All of these new things were burgeoning on campus 
with a consciousness of women in the women's lib sense, not in the 
old scholarly sense . So we mentioned all of these things . 

Then we had to vote. The score was something like, well, it 
was very heavily on our side. Everybody was totally amazed. They 
said to Elizabeth and Anne and me, "Well, great, you are now the 
board of directors." None of us bought that. We were not that 
type. We did not know what to do. 

Riess : Did the residents join in on this? I mean, since you were on their 
side in a way. 

Miles: The residents were all about 103 years old. They were just hanging 
on because they were not paying any money to stay here, or not much. 
That is my impression. Now again, I have only been told that the 
club in those years was ruined by the fact that when you came in 
here you just saw people who were blind, deaf and dumb, and only 
about seven of them. That is all there was around here, [laughter] 

Riess: Oh dear! Of course that was a time in the 1960s when everything was 
under attack. Maybe this was easily seen as sort of a sacrificial 

Miles: It was , it was. That is right. We were "doing our bit" by the 
University giving them this space. 

Now then, what happened, I do not know, because I really hid 
out at that point. I did not come back. I think Betty did come 
back and work. I am not sure about Anne. 


Riess : So then, who took over? 

Miles: I think maybe Betty did, some of it. You must talk to her. 

Anyway, where I pick up again, say that is early sixties, I do 
not pick up again until maybe ten years later. 

Riess: Well, what about Prytanean and the women's center? How important is 
that in the history? 

Miles: Well, that is true, I was . In the sixties, the English Department 
women joined together and created what they called the women's 
caucus, in order to fight for the department to get more women in 
the department. (Just parenthetically, I will say that they never 
had to fight again. The department was just great. They always 
voted for whatever they wanted. So within a few years we had twelve 
women on the staff, and so on.) 

Riess: Actually, I remember this from your oral history. This was a time 
when you took leadership. People were outraged and hysterical. You 
said, "Well, let us look at the facts." 

Miles: Yes, "Let's take it easy." We did, we took it easy. I was planning 
to have lunch today with one of those women and then she got called 
away. So, that is why I have this free hour because we were going 
to kind of reminisce. Her name is Dorothy Brown, and you might be 
interested in talking to , her too, though this was not related to _ 
the club. She was on the women's studies side of it. 

Riess: The women's caucus was just for the English Department, right? 

Miles: Yes, and then also I mentioned those twenty lecturers in the 

sciences, and a group of very fine scientific leaders had a kind of 
underground women's movement to try to help them. We all failed on 
that one. The cards were really stacked. 

What I am trying to say here is that many of the things we then 
tried were fund-raisers for women. We had them in the Women's 
Faculty Club . I remember many times during the sixties coming in 
here to poetry reading or some kind of colloquium, the type of thing 
that you saw in the "Images of California."* We paid rent for those, 
For the life of me I cannot remember who the manager was then. I 
cannot remember what the finances were. We did have wine and cheese 
and we did pay rent. There always were diapers on the staircases 
because of the women's center. It became a babysitting center. 
Nobody liked this very well . 

*"Images of California," organized by Jim Hughes, 1978-79, from the 
Institute of Governmental Studies, was a sequence of sessions with 
speakers from varied humanities disciplines considering the common 
theme of how California is perceived . 


Riess: The Women's Center now housed in T-9 is such a different group. 
What was the original women's center all about? 

Miles: Well, you see, I did not come to any of those Prytanean meetings. 
Riess: It was a child-care service, or what? 

Miles: Yes, it became a child-care service. In other words, in my best 

speculation but I am not the one to really ask but in my relation 
to the Women's Faculty Club in the early sixties, we came to dinners 
and banquets given by other departments for 

other reasons like the Aesthetics Group met here. I do not remem 
ber anything about the officers or anything about the finances 
except that everyone was saying that this cannot go on. "We cannot 
use the Women's Faculty Club as a babysitting service." 

Prytanean, I think, had helped sponsor this, but then was 
finding it was not working. Everybody was trying to get the T 
building, which they did. So, when they got the T building, the 
kids all cleared out and now we were left with not much of anything 

Riess: Brief tangent: why were you raising funds for women? 

Miles: Because they were being eliminated around here. 

Riess: You were raising funds to support positions? 

Miles: Those twenty lecturers. We had some law cases. 

Riess: Funds to fight the legal battle? 

Miles: Well, it was not that much money. It was mostly funds to you know 
how women are, it was to have cake sales, to give a party, to invite 
the men so they would come and be friendly, you know, indirect, very 

Riess: You were still looking at it with a somewhat jaundiced eye, even 
though you were participating in it. 

Miles: Yes. I would never have done any of what now comes, which is from 
the mid-sixties on, if it had not been for these half a dozen or so 
of these great gals in the English Department who just came to me 
and said I had to, just the way Pauline Sperry had. These women 
were not especially scholars . They were women libbers and they 
wanted rights for women in the English Department and in the univer 
sity. Since I knew Elizabeth Scott, who supported them statistically 
on anything they wanted to find out if she knew it was true, all of 
our suspicions were statistically valid, I had that entre into 
something that was important to them. 


Riess : They were graduate students? 

Miles: They were graduate students. They were just you know how that 

accidentally happens a nice group of friends that worked together. 
They got what they wanted in the department partly because I encour 
aged them to be not too crabby about it partly because we had a 
very nice committee with men on it as well as women. Okay, so then 
we used the club a lot, just as a nice resource. 

Everybody said how marvelous that this club is there. It is a 
way of life which is nowhere else on campus. For very little money 
we can come here and have poetry readings and music recitals and all 
of these great things, and enjoy friends and just come for a cup of 
tea. How marvelous! They all gave credit to Anne and Betty and me 
for this because they had all heard that it had already been turned 
into carrels . 

So this went on for quite a long time. Then, I kept saying, 
"But the faculty members, you do not join. How do you expect the 
place to go on without you?" Well, they did not have the time, they 
have to bring brown bag lunches . This has been our answer all the 
time. "No, no, no time for clubbishness ." 

The men's club, by the way, is not flourishing for clubbishness 
either. It is just not that era. Well, then to go faster ahead 

Riess: The men's club was not flourishing or is not flourishing? 

Miles: Is not. It is ten or twenty thousand dollars in debt. 

Riess: That is a statement of fact, that people do not have time? 

Miles: That is the statement they give you. 

Riess: What do you think about that? 

Miles: Well, if I were Pauline Sperry I would not take "No" for an answer, 

but I am not . I think all the women in the English Department should 
say join. Even Anne Middleton is gone now because she has too much 
else to do. [She's back!] 

Riess : You would also say that all the women in the English Department are 

Miles: Yes, that is true, they are. 
Riess: But they should join to support it? 
Miles: It is only three dollars a month. 


5) The Seventies Merger Meetings and Other Meetings 

Miles: Somewhere around the early seventies, I get this phone call from Peg 
Uridge, who was head of the circulation or something at the library. 
All I knew about Peg Uridge is that I used to talk to her on the 
phone about books sometimes . One time I was having dinner at a 
Chinese restaurant and she recommended the pickles. In other words, 
my only memory of what she looks like was those pickles. 

I got this phone call saying, "Will you be on the board of the 
Women's Faculty Club, because we are in terrible trouble and I don't 
know how to handle it." She was a dominant administrator on the 
whole campus so she jolly well should. She said, "Roger Heyns 
persuaded one of the angels of Berkeley," one of the big whatever 
[Strauss Associates]. 

Riess: The Haases. 


Miles: Yes, "to donate money to refurbish both clubs, make them both fire 

proof and so on, in exchange for the fact that they would become one, 
because of course it is totally absurd to have a men's and a women's 
faculty club on one campus." To which I certainly agreed. I said, 
"It is absurd." It was forced in very curious ways. I would not 
blame the women, but I sure think we ought to figure out how to 

"Well," Peg said, "we've had some trouble already. We actually 
merged about two years ago, with the result that the manager of the 
Men's Faculty Club came up and took all the dishes away and all of 
our furnishings and said he was going to use this for a filing storage 

(I said, "Oh, oh, there we go again with those carrels.") Now 
this you probably heard from Josephine Smith and other more vivid 
tale-tellers than mine. 

Riess: Yes, the infamous Chuck Walters. 
Miles: Yes, yes, yes. 

"So it was all dropped because there was such a passion at that 
point, but now we are almost consummating a deal for merger. We have 
one more meeting." Peg said, "I do not understand why these men talk 
to us the way they do. They are very rude. I do not know how to 
cope. You have been on so many committee meetings, we thought it 
would be nice for you to be there and know how to talk to them." 


Miles: I thought this was real funny because I probably had been 

defeated on more committee meetings than anybody in town. Anyway, 
she said, "We have also asked Bobbie..." 

Riess: Bobbie who? 

Miles: Bobbie [Babette] Barton, in the Law School, a very lovely woman. 

"She is going to be on the board." I said, "Who else?" Then 
she mentioned the others and they were all, if you will pardon the 
expression, from P.E. The reason I "pardon the expression" is that 
these were the women that had given out in the first place. Mary 
Lou Norrie is a great gal... 

Riess: You mean who hadn't considered it a battle worth fighting? 

Miles: Yes, somehow they are, I do not know. Now those poor ladies are 
being beaten down by their new colleagues. They've got double in 
spades, I am afraid. 

Anyway, I said, "They are giving into the, they are not backing 
you up there . " 

She said, "Now, how do you know that?" 
I said, "Well, I have talked to them over many years." 
"They are not backing me up . I cannot believe it." 
I said, "Okay, Bea and I will come and back you up."* 

Well, it is an unpleasant story and I do not want to tell it in 
detail. We came to the afternoon meeting and those guys were like 
I have never seen people like that before, even when they barred the 
door at the club. There was a fellow there by the name of [Phillip] 
Johnson. I will only mention his name. He is a lawyer. I have 
really forgotten the name of the president of the Men's Faculty Club. 

They said that they did not need to explain it to us because we 
were new members of the board. Their own new members had come back 
on in November, and it was too late to explain it to us . I said, 
"It is never too late if we do not understand." 

"Oh, yes it is, we do not want to waste our time going over 
this all over again." 

It was a silly dialogue. So at some point, I think Bea or 
somebody said, "In other words, your idea of merger, is really as 
far as we are concerned, submerger." Well of course, I mean, how 
else can it be? You cannot have two clubs conflicting back and forth, 
One has to give into the other. It is obvious. 

^Unclear. Bea may be Babette Barton. 


Miles: I said, "I think we should petition for another meeting before we do 
any voting here." 

Riess: You were brought in to the meeting at which things were going to be 
decided? Peg Uridge could have gotten onto the situation a little 

Miles: She could have, but you see she did not realize that her board was 
going to vote against her until the last minute. 

So I said we needed another meeting. Then Johnson said some 
thing like, "Oh, you women always fiddling around and not making up 
your minds ! " 

Bea stood up and said, "Thank-you for the opportunity to meet 
with you and we will be glad to meet with you again sometime when 
your attitude has changed." She was great I 

Fortunately my helper was waiting out there, so we could both 
make an exit, which we did. It was great. That was the end of that 
merger because they were too mad at us. Peg, of course, was happy. 
Then Peg was able to put their finances on their feet . 

Riess: So they did not try other means. They just felt at that point that 
they were well rid of you. 

Miles: Us. Yes, we were "shilly-shallying." They would wait until we all 
got tired or something. 

Riess: Of course, Josephine Smith might maintain that they were doing it all 
for financial reasons anyway. 

Miles: To get their debt wiped out. Oh, sure. 
Riess: Do you think that is it? 

Miles: Well, it was certainly an important factor. Also, you see, the Haas's 
offer was very fine. We needed reshingling, we needed new plumbing, we 
needed all the safety features. Both clubs got them. Even that would 
have been worth it. Then there was the debt. But the third thing 
is, why did they want to bother with us? 

They would have been more profitable if we had joined them. 
Though the stipulations for joining were kind of funny. I mean, 
we were not welcome to come in there at any time and eat or anything 
like that. It was sort of limited what we could do. 

Riess: Had you ever looked at the actual wording of the Haas offer to see 
in fact whether that was interpreted by Heyns as requiring merger? 


Miles: I had understood that Heyns proposed it to Haas, not vice versa. 
Riess: Proposed it to Haas and also proposed merger? 

Miles: He proposed it for the men. He was anxious to get the women out of 
there. This is the way I am told. This is all second hand. 

So the first hand stuff and this is what I wanted to tell you 
about my unregenerateness was when he had these board meetings, I 
just loved them. They were almost as interesting as the research 
meetings. We would have things like, "We cannot pay our bills for 
next month and we have got to raise the rent on the garages." 
(Those garages are gone now.) "Now, let us see, how much shall we 
raise them?" Then we spent three hours debating whether it should 
be fifteen dollars or twenty dollars. 

Bea would say, "Look, we spent three hours on this, couldn't we 
come to some decision before ten o'clock?" 

Peg would say, "I don't want to rush things." 
Then Bea would say, "But I have to go." 

I would say, "Well, couldn't we have some principle for how much 
to raise the garage rent? Like, for example, how much do we need?" 
I would say, "Just for jokers, I will move that we raise the rents 
twenty dollars a garage." 

Everybody, "Jo! Don't you realize that Susan Smith could never 
afford twenty dollars a month?" I would go out of there just 
laughing! I guess I am just very fond of general principles. These 
ad hominem arguments over everything just defeated me. Peg, busy 
as she was, was that way. So, I do think there is something you can 
say about women, at least that group of women. 

Riess: You have made the point that you believed in discussion, and your 
students would say to you, "Let us just cut this talk out." 
Dec is ion -making was something you were learning from your students? 

Miles: No, not quite, it was a little different from that. Our department 
was wonderful at having meetings, decision-making meetings. They 
were just really terrific. George Stewart and Jim Caldwell were 
two men of principle ACLU principle and all kinds of good principle, 
They kept us steadily to principle. 

But the students of the sixties wanted to work by osmosis, not 
by argument or principle. They would say, "Do not hassle us." They 
would just sit there quietly, and decide. They would not talk to 


Miles: each other. They would just sit there quietly and then one student 
would say, "Let's meet Thursday at three." They would say, "Okay." 
Then they would all get up and leave, without even asking me if that 
was okay. It was osmosis. 

Riess : Osmosis is a mysterious process. 

Miles: The kids I am hoping they will do that again. They worked together 
wonderfully in the sixties with a sense that they understood each 
other and they did not need to argue, or their word "hassle." 

Riess: But it was because they scorned this kind of waste of time, they 
scorned the process? 

Miles: Well, they scorned argument. They scorned conflict. They just wanted 
to decide by getting the same feeling together. Now that was not 
Peg. Peg wanted to talk it all through. She wanted to talk it 
through in terms of every single possible instance, of everybody who 
might suffer. 


She just did not want to draw principles like, "Let us raise 
the rents on some basis." So, no, those were very different. Her 
meetings were very systematic, but so detailed that you would go 
out just tearing your hair. 

6) The Club for Now, and the Future 

Miles: When Peg died, Katharine Williams became president, and she had also 
had a marvelous executive job [with the university], even better 
than Peg's, assigning rooms to professors all over campus she was 
really embattled. She has been a real miracle worker. Peg was 
wonderful to turn the tide from nothing to something, but Williams 
has just been phenomenal. She has got it on the basis it is now, 
which is that we are actually making money, men are pouring into the 
club membership, the lunches are pretty good, and her board meetings, 
I hear, are just marvelous. They take half an hour. If there is 
any problem, we have two lawyers on the board now. They always clear 
these matters up, it is so great. 

She was telling me about something the other day about some 
really knotty issue. The lawyers looked at her in amazement and 
said, "It is not a knotty issue. You look at it this way." She 
did, and everybody applauded and that was that. 

I am not going to say that there are not good women other than 
lawyers there; of course there are. There is a tendency, when some 
kind of women get together, I think, in a club meeting atmosphere, 


Miles: to ignore everything but the fascinating details. It is nice in a 
way. It was a great phenomenon to me who had heard it all in a 
faculty setting where they were pretty rigorous. So, that about 
brings me to the end I guess. 

Riess : Peg began the process of turning it around, and Katherine Williams 
completed it? This is the strength of women now, or of the presi 

Miles: Well, sadly, I am afraid, it is partly the strength of those two 

women picked. They are not faculty members. The club is more and 
more administrative women. This makes me so angry and sad. I 
thought of this this morning when I was thinking of you. I thought, 
in freshman English we often tell a student if you do not know what 
the end of something is, go back and read your first sentence. I 
thought of what my first sentence would be, and it would have 
Pauline Sperry in it. 

Pauline Sperry 's feeling then was that women owed something to 
each other as separate from what they owed to humanity. I was con 
verted to it, and I did not believe it to begin with. I am now 
converted to it, and I am now finding that it is against the new 
style. Women do not want to do it now. 

The women in our department say I have quoted this, probably, 
for you "If I thought that I was in this department for any reason 
because I am a woman, or that I had been helped to get here by 
women, I would quit." They look right at me when they say this. 
They know that I am thinking of twelve or thirteen women who dedi 
cated ten years to getting them there. That makes one angry. It is 
a kind of self pride that will not face participation as a person. 

So, it is sad. I mean, in other words, everything I learned 
was great for me, and I am terribly glad that women helped me learn 
it. But, it is now useless again. 

Riess: Are they in the Men's Faculty Club? Are they choosing to join there? 

Miles: Some of them join the men's, not too much. Marian Diamond is an 

officer. Some of them do for one thing: it is a shorter distance 
than up here. But no, not many, and not as many in proportion as we 


The men here, I do not know if you have read any of their 
letters, but they are so nice and so loyal. You know what they are 
praising, don't you? 

The food. 


Miles: Isn't that a regression? 

Riess: Yes, of course. 

Miles: They are not having any intellectual debates with anybody. 

Riess: Can you think of anything that is going on around the club here now 
that s_ intellectual? 

Miles: Not the way it was in the sixties. We had marvelous meetings in the 
sixties. I remember one meeting where a black kid got up and threw 
his glass at the speaker, a glass of wine at the speaker. Now that 
does not sound as if I should boast about it. But, that kid felt 
so deeply: the speaker was saying that practice was not as important 
as spontaneity, and this kid said that his folks had made him prac 
tice the violin for nineteen years and he was not going to listen to 
anybody say that, and he threw his glass. 

The club in the sixties was a host to that ferment, but did not 
necessarily create it. It was just a host. 

Right now they are absolutely desperate to find a president 
after Katherine leaves, or a board of directors. Nobody wants to 
carry these burdens. There is not that much loyalty per se, as there 
was essentially in Peg. I think Katherine has enjoyed it for its 
own sake. She is a great manager. She loves getting the kitchen 
fixed up. I think for her it has been a good retirement job. For Peg, 
it was a real challenge from the women's point of view. But there 
is nobody else now. 

Elizabeth and I, I should mention this, about three years ago, 
tried to start this intellectual club again. Not in the evenings, 
because nobody comes on campus in the evenings, supposedly, but at 
noon. Sue Ervin-Tripp, by the way, had lots of lunches for women 
assistant professors to just tell their problems, and how to help 
get promoted, and so on. So, yes, in the past five years, Sue and 
Elizabeth, and to a little extent I, have done some work. We have 
tried to get women together to talk about their problems . 

Riess: Not talking about their research any more though, just about their 

Miles: Well, that is what is so funny. About every other meeting, I would 
say, "Now look people, I want to make a speech before everybody goes 
home. I want to say, it is fascinating to hear about how you can 
or cannot get promoted in the Sociology Department, but, isn't 
anybody doing any interesting research?" Sometimes they would take 
up the challenge. Some of them would come and tell us some. 


Miles: Elizabeth wrote me a note the other day saying that she had written 
around and nobody had volunteered any. Now, it does not mean they 
are not doing it, but it means that there is not any women's cohe 
sive spirit. There are only two times, you see, that I lived through 
it . One was in the forties which was a hangover from the thirties . 
Then the other was in the sixties and seventies, or the seventies 
was a hangover from the sixties which was very different from the 
first one, but also had lots of life and energy. 

I will make one other sentence here. Elizabeth, the statisti 
cian, and another woman, who was on a committee with me, who was a 
graduate student what was her name? A very fine person, you should 
have her name . 

Anyway, they asked the question, "Why do 16 percent of the men 
graduate students drop before they get their degrees, and 42 percent 
of the women?" Then they interviewed, and then they did all the 
study they could. The main result is that we set up what we called 
a "hand-holding committee" for the women. The women are now dropping 
at exactly the same rate as the men. So we really did a roughly 20 
percent good job. 

That proves something about what they need. It does not inspire 
me very much. Again, it is not one of the things that urges me to 
greater heights . 

Riess: It sounds like you are saying that women have to be taught to be 
nice to each other. 

Miles: [giggle] "You have to be carefully taught?!" I do not know. I am 

puzzled by it. I just wrote a poem which said, "When I was a little 
girl, my mother was trying to get out the vote. She took me with 
her, knocked on all these doors and asked all these women to vote 

for the vote in California in 19 , " whatever it was, '16, '15, 

whatever. "I said, 'Mother, why are you doing this?' 'Just because 
after the women get the vote, there will be no more war'." So, I 
just end with that question. 

In a way, that is the same thing, isn't it? Women have a cer 
tain power of really working idealism. Maybe you are right, maybe 
it just has not been exercised enough. 

Riess: Marian Diamond had a lunch group. What that a "hand-holding" group 
or a research group? 

Miles: It was a "Marian Diamond group." She would ask women questions, and 
we would answer. Her lunches were fun, and it was fun to see the 
people. It did not concern anything of what I would hope sometime 
we, women, could have. As you see, I am the last one to be talking 
about what women should do. Yet, as I say, I got enough of that in 
those two different instances to know that it is possible. I just 
don't know why it is so infrequent. 


Riess: Well, I hope you keep thinking about it, and observing it and so on, 
I think it is very interesting. I wonder what the club's future is 
going to be? What do you think? 

Miles: I think it is going to go up and down, as before. Katherine, I 

think, will hold it together, unless she gets terribly impatient. 
If she can find somebody to be president that will hold it together 
for a few more years how much that continuity could be created, I 
don't know. 

I will come right now! [to helper] 

Riess: Do you think it makes a difference that the board is dominated by 
administrative people? 

Miles: By administrative we mean Law Department, Library Department, some 
administrative assistants. 

Riess: Deans of women, and Sproul Hall people. 

Miles: Yes. It is not that they are dominated by it, that is what they 
mostly are. 

I have just been inviting all the new graduate students in 
English not all, but the ones I meet to join. It only costs one 
dollar a month, if you can imagine, for graduate students. Just 
this year for the first time, about six or seven have joined very 
enthusiastically and said, "What a bargain!" Now this is a differ 
ent reason. Maybe economics will [do it]. 

Okay, Bill. [to helper] 

Transcriber: Beverly Butcher 
Final Typist: Nicole Bouche 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Gudveig Gordon-Britland 

1) Background, Education and Employment 124 

2) Women's Faculty Club Office Job, 1959 126 

3) Arrangements for the Residents I 27 

4) The Managers 

5) Working with the Men's Club 131 

6) The Auditor i32 

7) The Public Relations Part of the Job 134 

8) The Abbos 137 

9) The Breakfast Arrangements 

10) Joint Operations 

11) The President and the Members, 1972-1976 145 

Gudveig Gordon-Britland, Office 

Manager, The Women's Faculty Club 

Photographed by Suzanne R-iess, 1982 


Gudveig Gordon-Britland 
March 2, 1982 
Interviewed at her home 

1) Background, Education and Employment 

Riess: First of all, tell me a little bit about yourself and your background. 

G-B: In early 1914 I was in this country with my father and mother to 
visit. We came by rail through the United States. 

Riess: This was war time? 

G-B: It was just before the war started, 
in time. 

We got home to Norway just 

I had received permission from school and every week I had 
to write a resume of what I had seen and why. The "why" was very 
important to my teacher because she said, "That's when we know 
what you have been doing, and we hear about where you have been 
and what you really saw." So, I had to do that on my first visit 
to California. It was very interesting for me, too, because I 
did learn a lot by doing that page every week. It was mailed to 
my teacher every week. She read it in her classes. 

I remember the first time that I used an American slang 
I had been told that we were to pay five cents, "a nickel," on 
the streetcar. So, I wrote that I paid a nickel, everybody paid 
a nickel. That page was returned to me by my teacher with a big 
red note saying, "I do not accept slang." I had to re-write the 
full page and then return it to my teacher she was an excellent 
teacher. Do you know, to this day it's five cents! It is not 
a nickel. 

Then in 1927 we were here on a visit again, but my mother 
at that time became desperately ill. After my mother passed away, 
my father returned to Norway and I stayed on. I met my husband, 
and we established our home. 

Riess: Did you go on with schooling here? 


G-B: No, I had all my schooling in Norway. I attended school for my 

American citizenship, which I got in 1950. That was very interesting. 
And it was a beautiful experience. I made up a little book about 
my American citizenship. I like it very much to sort of look back 
and see what's happened and how scared I was. 

Riess: Was your husband an American citizen? 

G-B: Yes, he was an officer in the United States Navy. 

Riess: Your hyphenated name, is that your name plus his? 

G-B: No, no, it's Scot and British, his parents. 

Riess: How did your connection with the university and the Women's Faculty 
Club begin? 

G-B: My husband passed away and, of course, I had to get to work. I 
couldn't just sit, you know, and it was war years. 

I was not a citizen at that time my husband passed away, so 
when I had to go to work I was pretty scared, because the first 
question each time that I went in for an interview was, "Are you 
an American citizen?" And when I said, "No," I could see the chair 
sort of move a bit. 

I was accepted at Capwell's for my first part-time job. I 
did get a little experience about being with people and listening 
to all this real fast manner of talking. And, of course, all the 
new words! I had a little pad in my pocket. I wrote up all the 
words that I didn't understand. When I came home, in the evening, 
I took the dictionary, and tried to, you know, follow the words 
that they had told me. So, it was lovely. Really, they were so 
nice to me. 

Then I heard that there were openings at Breuner's. I went 
there and I was accepted. I worked myself up to a nice work. I 
was purchasing agent for fourteen years. I worked there for fifteen 
years. But Breuner's has a habit of firing employees every two 
or three years. They think that someone else should come in. 
They've always done that so, I was fired. In between, they fired 
quite a few from the store. 


2) Women's Faculty Club Office Job, 1959 

G-B: Then I had to look for something else. And, of course, I asked 
everybody if they knew of something, because at that time I had 
worked for fifteen years and I had experience, of course, very 
good experience. But it was at that time, too, when people at 
forty shouldn't work anymore. You remember that? It was a little 
hard. So, I had friends asking about everything. 

Suddenly one evening I received a telephone call that the 
manager of the Women's Faculty Club tells us that they are looking 
for someone to help in the office. "Tomorrow they will call you 
for an interview." So, I went up and it was Mrs. [Amy] Bumstead 
who was the office manager there, we had a nice little visit 
she had been in Europe many years and she accepted me. She said 
she would give the information to the board of directors, and of 
course it would be up to them, but evidently they accepted me too. 

Riess: Who introduced you to Mrs. Bumstead? 

G-B: It was Mrs. Caroline Radclif fa, who was the club manager then. 
First I was the assistant, with Mrs. Bumstead. 

Riess: You became full-time in October 1960? 

G-B: Yes. 

Riess: Who else was the staff then, at that time? 

G-B: It was just the two of us. We had someone come in from four 'til 
nine because those that lived there, [felt] that they shouldn't 
open the door themselves ; someone should come and open the door 
for them. 

Riess: [laughter] You mean the residents needed to have a door person? 
G-B: Yes. 

Riess: I can tell by the expression on your face that you have some feeling 
about that. [laughter] 

G-B: Well you know, after all, when you come home, you open your own 

door. But that was it, you see, it was special there. When they 
started to have trouble on the campus, it was the campus police 
that suggested that we close earlier so that no one would have 
to walk through campus. So we closed at six, which was horrible 
for those that lived there. But they realized they didn't have 
anything to say about that. 


Riess: This was in the beginning of the sixties? 

G-B: Yes. 

Riess: That meant a six o'clock curfew? 

G-B: All that lived there had their own keys of course. And we did 
not serve dinner. So they had to go out. 

I should mention that also on our staff was Mrs. Virginia 
Vail. She worked with us in the office on week-ends and when we 
needed extra office assistance. She, too, had worked on campus 
so she knew many of our members. It was so nice Virginia was 
loved by everyone, always helpful, dependable, capable, and we 
knew the office had excellent attention when she was there. 

3) Arrangements for the Residents 

Riess: I looked at the job description for the office assistant. I don't 
know whether you've ever seen your job description? 

G-B: No, what did I do? 

Riess: Well, I thought I would tell you what you did and then you could 
make some comments on doing it. [laughter] Everyday you had to 
check the meal chits and do something about security. 

G-B: Yes, if any windows had to be opened, I had to do that, because 
it should say there that I was definitely a clerk. Everybody in 
the building referred to me as "the clerk" and the clerk should 
do everything. So, I was definitely the clerk until Miss Murdock 
came to the office as manager. Mrs. Bumstead resigned and Miss 
Murdock replaced her. She changed my title to assistant; so nice 
of her to do that, for me. 

When I came, in the morning, I had to open all the doors that 
they thought should be open. Then I opened the office and I went 
to the vault and I opened it and took all the books out and then 
locked it again. But in the evening, before I left at four, I 
had to close all the windows and lock all the doors and see that 
the kitchen was under control. It was funny, you know, I had to 
do all this. 

Then I had to take the newspaper, the Berkeley Gazette that 
was a day paper at that time up to Mrs. [Mary B.] Davidson. I 
had to knock on her door and then just leave it. I couldn't open 


G-B: the door. And I had to wait for that paper, I could not leave. 

If it was four-thirty or five o'clock and the paper wasn't there. 
I had to wait. 

Riess: That was a very special arrangement, in that case? 

G-B: Yes. 

Riess: She asked you to do that? 

G-B: She didn't ask me, she told me. There's a difference. I was told 
because I was a clerk. That was all right with me, I was at work, 
so that didn't bother me any. 

Someone that didn't care for all this ordering people around, 
she said , "If you miss a window or a door you will hear about it 
the next morning. So, be real careful because Miss Dornin takes 
care of all the windows, all the doors, all the lights, and, when 
someone is reading in the library at nine o'clock, she says, 'It's 
time to lock up,' and she turns off the lights." It was sort of 
double check. 

So, I was very careful but after all we're all humans. Once 
in a while, if a window you know, somebody could have opened that 
window. All the rooms do not have cross circulation; they have 
one window. Then in the summertime they would go and open the 
window in the hallway. Of course, I closed it at four. Well, 
at six, seven, or eight o'clock, she found a window open. I hadn't 
closed it. That was my fault, it was open. 

Riess: It's all so petty, isn't it? 

G-B: But that was the atmosphere of the club, because the people that 
lived there, it was their home. On a hot summer day, and we do 
have hot summer days, that basement [office] was sort of hot. All 
we had was the windows . We were not allowed to keep the front 
door open "because it was a home; it was not a building." 

Riess: This feeling, on the part of the residents, that it was their home, 
therefore everybody who worked there were their servants, did this 
come up in board meetings? Did they try to work this out? 

G-B: No, I don't think so. I think the board members very much agreed 
with it. Quite a few of them had lived there that were on the 

Riess: Who was Mrs. Davidson? 


G-B: Dean Davidson. She also had a table in the dining room with her 

reservation on it. It was just a table for two and only one chair 
because she did not want company. 

Riess: It sounds like there were a few primadonnas. 

G-B: Yes, that's why we had the Family Table. When we received visitors 
from other countries at that time, they came by ship, and they 
had trunks some of those who lived there would come to the office 
and they'd say, "How many trunks did she bring?" [laughter] If 
we said, "One," they couldn't sit at the Family Table. If they 
brought two, they were accepted. 

Riess: What does that mean? 

G-B: I suppose it meant that they would have a little more money if 
they brought two, and maybe a little more wardrobe. 

Riess: Who ran the Family Table? 

G-B: Miss Czarnowski and Miss Dornin. No one sat at the Family Table 
except the residents and the people they chose. But you see, it 
was their home. 

It was desperately hard to be a manager to them. Mrs. Radcliffe 
needed things for the club, tablecloths or something like that, 
or maybe something for flowers "We can't afford it." There was 
a "no" most of the time from the board. Mrs. [Lucille] Phipps 
had the same thing. 

Mrs. Phipps managed, somehow, to open the library for special 
luncheons, like for a little birthday lunch, when you don't want 
to be in the main dining room. There was someone that asked and 
she said, "Oh, surely you can be in the library." There was quite 
a discussion afterwards. She was really reprimanded for doing 

But sometimes things happen that should happen, and one day 
it did: one of the members of the board of directors had friends 
coming and they were very important friends. She probably wanted 
to have it real nice. So she asked Mrs. Phipps if she could have 
it in the library. Mrs. Phipps said, "I have been reprimanded 
for this so I don't know. You'll have to find out rrom the board 
of directors." Being that she was one of them, [chuckle] she said, 
"I'll take that responsibility." 

Mrs. Phipps had to bring tablecloths from her home all the 
time in order to make it a nice luncheon. She brought other things 
to make it nice, because all we had were crude, really. (All the 


G-B: good silver was kept in the vault and could not be used except 

like for the Women's Faculty Club tea; it wasn't like now at all.) 

It was a beautiful table when she finished; we saw it, she was 
so proud. 

She had closed the door when everything was ready. And of 
course, you know, there was somebody coming down the steps, opening 
the door. But no one was supposed to go into the lounge or library. 
They were supposed to stay there and look in from the foyer like. 
They saw this, and of course, "Who ordered this?" Then they were 
told that it was one of the board of directors. 

Well, that sort of established it. I think it was sort of 
ironed out in the board of directors meeting that it should be 
opened for all the members.* 

4) The Managers 

Riess: Mrs. Phipps had quite a long term, as manager, didn't she? 

G-B: Yes, she was very well accepted. She was a very good manager. 

As a manager when you ask for things to make things go better and 
nicer and the answer is "no", it is always the manager that will 
be blamed for that, for not being interested, because the board 
of directors will not tell you that they said, "We can't afford 
it." Which they could afford. They had the money. But it was 
just anything new. It was just, they felt because they had it, 
why buy new things? 

Riess: The board of directors changed every year, but you're saying their 
philosophy never changed? 

G-B: There were always some staggered, since their terms were staggered. 
That's all that was needed. 

Riess: When Mrs. Phipps left around 1966, did she retire? 

G-B: Yes, Mrs. Phipps retired at that time. But then they asked her 
to come to Strawberry Lodge. She went down there. She was just 
going to help out, but they liked her so well, they added more and 
more and made her the manager rather than help. 

*See further stories appended. 


Riess: So she went on there and then she was replaced by Mrs. [Patricia] 

Barnes. Did these managers hire the cook? What is their relation 
ship to what comes out of the kitchen? 

G-B: Really I don't know just how that is done. I think Mrs. Radcliffe 
had hired Katy Martin. She was with us till we closed the dining 
room for the merger. She belonged to the union. She was an 
excellent cook. 

Riess: I wondered what connection the managers had to the quality of the 

G-B: That you have to ask Miss Murdock, because I don't know. I don't 
know, because the board of directors meetings, I didn't attend. 
And there was very little that was told to us. Miss Murdock. She 
was a member, she had lived at the club for a while. She was a 
member of the board of directors. She was a president, too. That 
gave a different feeling and a different atmosphere in the office 
all together. It was joyful. 

5) Working with the Men's Club 

Riess: [laughter] Now, to keep on some kind of a track here, I was going 
through the job description of the office assistant. So, checking 
the meal chits. Then weekly, you had to do something about 
reciprocity with The Faculty Club. 

G-B: Yes, for members of our club that went to the men's club. And 
some of the men came to our club, like on Thursdays, because we 
had roast beef and popovers on Thursday. That was just a man's 
dish. So on Thursdays we had visitors from the men's club, believe 
it or not. All those chits had to be added up and typed and sent 
over to the men's club. So that I had to do every week, too. Then, 
at the end of the month, I would add up the totals of the four 
weeks and then send a bill over to them. 

The office manager over there, he would just take the tape, 
come over, and say, "Well, this is it, here's your check." That 
was all there was to it. Mr. Smith was his name. We had a beautiful 
association with him. He was marvelous to work with. He used 
to come and sit down on the chair and he'd have a cup of coffee 
and when he laughed his tummy would go up and down, like a Santa 
Glaus! But we had to be sure that it was correct because we didn't 
want anything to happen. So that's what I had to do. 


Riess: Was there much use of the men's club by the women? 

G-B: Some of them were always there. [chuckles] So, then they sent 
the bills over to us. On our bills it says Women's Faculty Club 
and Men's Faculty Club, so it would go in the different slots on 
their bill. 

Riess: What happened when the men came over? Did they have to make a 
reservation ahead of time or could they just walk right in on 

G-B: Sometimes they would, they would probably have extra fellows with 
them to introduce them to roast beef and popovers and apple pie. 
They would. And then some of the members would too, so they were 
sure that the table was ready. So I had to do that, too. 

Riess: Was that an issue for the residents, that there were all these 
men there on Thursdays? 

G-B: No, I think they got used to it when Katy came. Mrs. Radcliffe 
knew really how to handle them with a silk glove and at the same 
time make them feel that, yes, it was their decision. She knew 
how to do that. 

6) The Auditor 

Riess: Monthly you had to prepare for the visit from the auditor. I think 
that plan started in 1957 or when Mrs. Bumstead left. She suggested 
that the Women's Faculty Club get a professional firm for the monthly 
closing of the books. Is this a usual practice to do it that way? 

G-B: I think it should be because it does give the board of directors 

the right to ask questions and it also gives them the feeling that 
the office is in good hands. Mrs. Bumstead was a certified public 
accountant. That's why they didn't have it before. 

Riess: When she was there they didn't have it? 

G-B: She had worked on campus. They knew her because she was with the 
student union, the ASUC. She was the manager of that for many, 
many years. But after she left, I do think it was excellent because 
I felt much that when he came that everything was in order. I 
could ask him questions. It was a wonderful feeling when he came. 
I was just looking forward to it. When Miss Murdock became manager, 
she had the same feeling that he_ was the one that gave the report. 


G-B: We didn't. We had to deal with it, because we had to prepare it 
and have it ready for him, but the results that he sent over to 
the board of directors, that was his. We enjoyed it very much. 

We enjoyed one [accountant] we had very much. The day he 
left, I got into trouble with Miss Czarnwoski. Miss Murdock and 
I, we were shocked when he came and said, "Today's the last day," 
and we said, "Oh, no!" But he was going to open his own office 
in Walnut Creek, so naturally he didn't want to come to us anymore. 
We were just heartbroken. Miss Murdock said, "We ought to have 
a good cup of coffee today, could you go up and fix something?" 

I had to make it festive, so I went out to the vault and I 
got a silver tray and all the nicest things I could find. I said, 
"There should be a flower there too." Miss Czarnowski made the 
arrangements, flower arrangements. She didn't "take care of the 
flowers," she "made the arrangements," a higher level. Nobody 
dared to do anything about it. 

I went into the dining room. I thought, gee, there ought 
to be a flower I could pick. And I looked and looked and suddenly 
as I walked about, I saw there was one. She had a rose, sort of 
tucked in. She didn't want to give it to us in the basement, because 
we got all the leftover roses. We could never have new ones because 
that was for upstairs. But there was this one, just sort of put 
there. It wasn't arranged inside or anything because I sort of 
[plucked it] and all of a sudden I had it. I put it on one side 
of the tray. 

Katy liked him too, and when we came up to get some coffee 
for him she said, "He's leaving? You just wait a minute, I'll 
have popovers." I was just delighted! I said, "I'll take the 
tray down, and then you bring the popovers." I came with the tray 
and I put it on the desk, and Miss Murdock was so pleased. She 
said, "Cookies?" And acted like this [whispers, gesture]. Here 
came Katy, knocking on the door, she said, "How would you like 
to have some hot popovers and some butter?" We just, "whoo!" So 
that was a delightful sort of ending. 

But after that [auditors] just came and went. We didn't get 
[attached to them]. 

Riess: Miss Czarnowski never missed that flower? 

G-B: Yes, she did! And she came down to the office and gave me a bawling 
out to the extent that Miss Murdock had to stop her. Later Miss 
Murdock told her to write me a note and tell that she was sorry 
she had spoken to me like that. 


Riess: Did she? 

G-B: She did. I will give her credit for that. But she was outraged 
that I would touch her arrangements. I didn't know a thing about 
flowers, you know. Nobody knew anything. But the day I retired 
from the club she wrote me a real nice letter. I so much appreciated 
her good wishes, and being friends, again. 

Riess: I've seen pictures of her arrangements. They're always very 

G-B: Yes, they were beautiful. She had the flower garden and we were 
never allowed to go out and take a rose. 

Riess: Was that in the front, or in the back? 

G-B: In the front. The rose bushes are still there. But of course 
it probably isn't given tender loving care like before. 

7) The Public Relations Part of the Job 

Riess: [continuing job description] As needed, you kept the member ledger 
cards up-to-date. 

G-B: Yes, because I did the billing on the ledger cards. I did all 

billing. Statements were mailed once a month to all the members. 

Riess: And you cut stencils for menus. You checked office supplies. You 
did PR work, public relations. That must cover a multitude of 
good and bad things, because they describe public relations as 
contact with the residents, taking messages, mail. 

G-B: Sure, because the telephone we had then was so we could contact 
every room. If there was a caller, we couldn't take her right 
up; even though we knew that they were expected, we couldn't do 
that. We had to telephone and say, "Miss So-and-so is here, if 
it's convenient for you to see her." If it was, then we said, 
"Yes, you may go up, and her room number is such-and-such." 

Riess: They would receive people in their rooms or would they come down 
to the lounge? 

G-B: Sometimes they would come down. If it was a man, of course, they 

would come down, except Mrs. Davidson, her son always went upstairs. 
But he too, had to be telephoned to go on up. Can you imagine? 


Riess: In that great big, wonderful university, essentially a democratic 
place, the Women's Faculty Club had some backward views. 

G-B: But, of course, when they grew up, they grew up in this, that there 
were them and then there were those down there. You must favor 
those above you. I think that's how they grew up. 

Riess: They were all single women, weren't they, except Mrs. Davidson? 

G-B: Yes. Mrs. Bumstead wasn't, and she lived there. But about all 
the others were single. But that shouldn't have anything to do 
with it, because they were with people everyday. It shouldn't 
be that that should be something special that you had to keep away 
from, because they were working with them, they were colleagues. 
So why be so [rigid and unpleasant], you know? They did have to 
show mutual respect. And it shouldn't be just for an evening or 
some special occasion. 

Riess: Over the years your name would come up in the minutes. 

G-B: [chuckle] What I didn't do? 

Riess: Nothing bad. Let's see. "Mrs. G. GB. had been working on Saturdays." 

G-B: That was my nickname, because my name was too long, so G. GB. I 
even signed G . GB . 

Riess: You had been working on Saturdays and you were paid extra for that. 

G-B: You know, when you are working and you like where you are, you 
have to give. 

Riess: Occasionally some good soul would bring attention to the fact that 
you had been putting in more hours. 

G-B: I was expected to do other duties, too. 

Riess: You were expected to be there until the Gazette came. 

G-B: Yes, I wasn't paid overtime for that, because I was expected to 
do that. I mean that was one of the things that went with the 
office, and that's all there was to it. 

Riess: Somebody should have taken some responsibility for a more equitable 


G-B: Miss Murdock was a friend of all of them, and to me, too. It put 
her in a very hard position. They would say, "Margaret, I want 
that done." So, what does Margaret do? Still, it put her in a 
very hard position, because she had lived there. She didn't just 
open the door and come in, which would have made it a little 
different atmosphere I think. 

She constantly had to do it. I admire her for it because 
she constantly had to. She did have beautiful, beautiful manners 
to keep them satisfied. Beautiful. She is so_ precious. I do 
admire her for how she really managed all of them. 

We had a little joke between us. Most of it, we just had 
to chuckle, because we just couldn't be under that strain. We 
had to do something to explode. About ten thirty, in the morning, 
from the third floor we would hear creak, creak, creak, all 
the way down. We did not have carpets on the stairs. Then we 
would look up and say, "Wonder what their complaints are today." 
We would be writing and writing and looking this way instead of 
this way. Miss Murdock sometimes would pick up the telephone and 
sound busy. [But she would look up to find out what this person 
wanted.] It would be a complaint that, oh, there probably was 
coffee in the saucer or somebody had left a window open and didn't 
close it, had promised to close it. Or somebody had taken books 
from the library and didn't sign for them. All these little minute 

And we'd say, "What did you expect me to do? I wasn't even 
here. So, why didn't you tell her this morning at the breakfast 
table?" But oh, no, it was up to the office, of course, to the 
manager, because that couldn't be done by the residents. 

At Christmastime, I always invited those residents that 
couldn't get home not anyone that lived there, of course, but 
those that couldn't get home, I invited them to have Christmas 
with me. I celebrate a Norwegian Christmas. I would write up what 
the program was because I wanted them to know. If they were with 
different religions, I respected that, but I also wanted them to 
enjoy it with me. I would write this and send it to them. 

Everybody accepted, and oh, they loved it! There were some 
that I didn't think would even walk about the Christmas tree with 
me. But they did and enjoyed it. I had each one sing a Christmas 
or, I didn't call it Christmas, a favorite song. And they enjoyed 
that too. 


G-B: It was just a different sort of work. Because it wasn't really 
just office work. They came to the office and they had a little 
visit with us. I do think that quite a few of them were lonely. 
Once in a while there would be a "How do you do." But that terrific, 
stiff, cold acceptance from the Family Table. You can't live with 
that. You have to have some warmth. So they used to come to the 
office and Miss Murdock and I, we would chuckle with them. She 
did a beautiful job keeping them all in order. 

Riess: What was Miss Murdock 's formula for dealing with it, do you think? 

G-B: She had been reared in a different atmosphere. Her father was 

an author and he was part of San Francisco. There was a different 
atmosphere because there were different races about her. She got 
used to that. They were all there. She heard of all this. So, 
she had that in her background . 

8) The Abbos 

Riess: The next manager then was Gaston Abbo. And it was interesting 
to read, in the minutes, his application for this job. He had 
been managing hotels in India and Indonesia and Malaysia. 

G-B: Can't you imagine him coming to the Women's Faculty Club? Can't 
you imagine the explosion? 

Riess: Well, I think it depends on him, what kind of an explosion. He 
sounds like he was a very sophisticated character. 

G-B: Yes but he was too sophisticated for the Women's Faculty Club. 

Typical French, and he dazzled everybody. He sold himself beauti 
fully. That was very easy, very easy. And he was on his own, 
definitely on his own. And they accepted him until things started 
to go. Then it was just too expensive, it really was. 

Riess: Did he bring his own cook? 

G-B: No, we had our own. Katy. Katy Martin. Katy knew she was a good 
cook. She could have something special, too. She agreed with 
that. She said, "If he tells me I'll do it. I have to." But 
she enjoyed it thoroughly. 

Riess: So, he did more continental and exotic things? 


G-B: Oh, yes, and she would say, "Well now, I don't know how to do that." 
She said, "You tell me how I can make it." But it wasn't always 
he could, [laughter] Katy said, "You have to give me the recipe 
for that in English." And he couldn't do that. So then we just 
sort of went back to creamed tuna and what have you. 

Katy wanted very much to do different things, but if you read 
the menu from week to week, you knew that the first week of the 
month and the last week of the month would be about the same, except 
maybe it was just turned around a little bit, you know, the salad 
came before the main entree or something of that sort. 

But there were lots of times that Katy sort of pushed in little 
things, just to try. And, of course, it would be accepted. She 
enjoyed that. 

Then when Mr. Abbo came he said, "You call it what?" She 
would give him the name. That wasn't fancy enough. So, the two 
of them would try to figure the American name and the French name 
and then get a name in between. But no, that didn't work. They 
just had a ball out there in the kitchen, the two of them. 

Once in a while Katy would say, "You tell me all these things 
to do them, but you can't tell me how, so let me do it my way." 
Then he would walk out. No, he couldn't do that. "She couldn't 
talk to him like that!" 

Riess: [laughter] Who settled their squabbles? 

G-B: Mrs. Abbo. She was gentle. She had, more or less, been kept in 
the background, I think, because he was always there. She, of 
course, didn't take part in any of the restaurants that he was 
managing. Because they had their own servants where they had been. 
So, naturally, she had had a different life altogether. For her 
to sit in that little room at the Women's Faculty Club wasn't very 
nice. She had a very lonely time there. 

Riess: They lived in the club? 

G-B: Yes. They were the first managers that lived there. And of course, 
husband and wife, it was very disturbing to the others that lived 
there, you see, because after all, there was a man in there. But 
anyway, they lived through it. 

But he served wine before dinner. At first he started in 
the library. There weren't very many that realized that it was 
served in there. So, then he put it out in the foyer there. And 
that [was very popular] until they realized they had to pay for 
it. [laughter] 


G-B: He didn't want them to pay for it. It should be just gracious. 

He said, "When you have guests for dinner, don't you serve wine?" 
He said, "It's natural." But it wasn't, of course. 

Riess: How long did that last? 

G-B: Oh, it lasted for a few months. Then they had to pay for it. The 
board of directors said they had to pay for it, because the wine 
got to be a bit too expensive. 

Riess: So, would it just go on their meal chits? 

G-B: No, they had to pay out of their pocket. And you see, we didn't 
have a permit. If they paid, we had to have a permit. We didn't 

have a license to sell liquor. So, I think we kept it up for one 
week and we suddenly realized that we couldn't do it. 

Riess: Did you suddenly realize or did somebody else? 

G-B: No, I didn't suddenly realize it, but I think Miss Murdock did. 
When she was talking to others, they said, "How did you get a 
license?" So, the wine bottle went back on the shelf and all the 
wine glasses. 

He bought champagne glasses. He bought wine glasses, one 
for red wine and one for liqueur. He bought them by the dozens. 

Riess: But wouldn't he go to the board to request permission for all of 

G-B: Well, he just said he needed it, and "I've already ordered it." 

So, what could they do? "I've already ordered and we expect them." 
Most of the time they were already there. But what would we need 
with champagne glasses? A case of champagne glasses, and one for 
the other wines, sherry glasses. They all had to be the best, 
which he was used to, but it didn't suit us at all. 

Another thing, he didn't realize union to him was something 
that he didn't understand at all. When he said, "go and do it" 
in those foreign countries, they did without objections, because 
they knew if they didn't they would be fired because there were 
a dozen there waiting to get his job. With union, you don't do 

Riess: Who was union? Katy was union? 


G-B: Katy was union. The salad-maker was union. The dishwasher was 

union. He would say, "You stay till dinner is over." They said, 

"No, we don't." He couldn't understand it. So he had an awful 

time with union. He didn't know one bit about unions. 

And he didn't know about a license for wine. "A license for 
wine? You should have a license for coffee but not for wine!" 

Riess: Sc, he was a bit of an innocent, you would say? 

G-B: But you don't expect men to be innocent either. He had been out 
in the world. 

Riess: Something happened. He was in the hospital? 

G-B: Yes, that was the excuse that they had to get somone else. He 

was actually ill. But that gave us the excuse. It was said very 
casually that we had to have someone else. Being union, that helped 

Riess: Josephine Smith, in an executive session meeting, recommended that 
the Abbos be discontinued due to the financial irresponsibilities. 
That was in December 1969. Do you think that that was what really 
brought it to a head? 

G-B: Of course, she took care of the finances. But we just couldn't 
keep it up. Because he just ordered frantically. 

Riess: Did the men flock over to the Women's Faculty Club during the Abbos 1 
tenure? Was it special for the men? 

G-B: No. 

Katy was still doing the popovers and roast beef anyway? 

G-B: Yes. And she did serve an excellent roast beef. I can just see 
the men enjoying it thoroughly. But then, after a year or so, 
then they had a new cook over at The Faculty Club. And he got 
wind of this roast beef. So he started, but they still came to 

9) The Breakfast Arrangements 

Riess: When you arrived in the office in the morning, the residents had 
already had their toast and coffee or whatever? 


G-B: Oh, no. Emma came in at six thirty o'clock to prepare breakfast 
for them. They were served in the private dining room. And Emma 
took care of the dining room and she helped in the kitchen. She 
would see that the tables in the dining room were prepared for 
lunch. So, she took care of that, and very well, too. 

She would come in, but once in a while, the bread that they 
wanted wasn't there. So they had to come creak, creak, creak down 
the steps and report that. Maybe the coffee was stronger and so 
they had to come creak, creak down and tell that to us in the office. 

She prepared breakfast. She had to boil the eggs for them, 
because they couldn't go out in the kitchen, and they didn't have 
anything in the dining room except the toaster. Then sometimes 
they'd just sit and wait for her to get the toast and serve the 
eggs to them. 

But she was really good. "Oh well," she said, "they like 
to have something special." Once in a while, she would say, "For 
Goodness sakes, just because I didn't have raisin bread!" She 
would come down to the office and I would order for her. She would- 
say, "Please, don't forget the raisin bread!" 

Mrs. Davidson had breakfast in her room. We had the little 
kitchenette, but she prepared her breakfast in her room. She did 
have lunch in the dining room, and [we had to] be sure that her 
table was shiny and her reservation was there that it was the dean's, 
and if that ever was soiled, she would give it to Emma and say, 
"It's soiled, Emma, why don't you see it? Please type it over again 
please." So, we'd type it over again and put it back nice and 

Riess: Josephine Smith became the volunteer auditor in February 1970, 
I believe. Were you still working there when she was that? 

G-B: It was a different atmosphere altogether when she came. When there 
was something, why she'd just sit down and we'd talk it over, get 
it all clear and that was all there was to it. She said, "Every 
body makes mistakes. And if they don't they don't work very hard." 

Riess: Following Mr. Abbo, was Mr. Gedrose. 

G-B: Yes. 

Riess: And then Mrs. Florence Curtis? 

G-B: Yes. 


Riess: How long did she stay? I can't find it in the records. 

G-B: Florence Curtis, she stayed till the day the merger had failed. 
She certainly wouldn't stay a day after that. 

10) Joint Operations 

G-B: I had a story about the merger. 
Riess: You've written that up? 

G-B: Yes, but I have no names in any that I have written, because if 
you use one name, you have to use them all.* 

Riess: Josephine Smith talked about Mr. Walters coming to take the rugs 
from the Women's Faculty Club. 

G-B: Yes, and he took everything from the kitchen too. And he wanted 
to come back and take everything from the other rooms. That's 
when we started to hide things. But I never had the key, and it 
made him furious! 

Riess: Was this a matter of weeks or days or what? 

G-B: Oh, it was a matter of months. It just went on and on. He entered 
when we first closed our building. "I should stay out." 

And we would go over to The Faculty Club, Mrs. Curtis and 
myself, because we had lunch over there. We were still on the 
payroll of the Women's Faculty Club, so we were allowed to have 
lunch [traditionally part of reimbursement for work]. 

So, Walters wanted an interview with me, because I was to 
work for him. The Women's Faculty Club was now a property of his 
office. And he would take it over. So I should be interviewed. 
He told me then, he said, "I want you to work over there, I want 
you to come here once a day and tell me what they talk about, what 
they plan. Now," he said, "you will be reimbursed for that." 

I said, "I don't work for you, I work for the Women's Faculty 
Club." That's when the feathers started to fly. I had to work 
for the Women's Faculty Club and they paid me. It was the beginning 
of his takeover; he referred to the building as his building. 

*See Appendices. 



Riess ; 





When we closed the dining room, that was the beginning of the merger. 
That is the day. The day after, I was interviewed, and that's 
when he told me that that's what I should do. I said no. 

He was going to pay you extra for that? 

Yes, because he wanted to take it over. He wanted to be the person. 
From that day on, I was just mud. Whenever Mrs. Curtis and I came 
over to have lunch, he said, "Here come the free loaders." We 
didn't pay for it, the club paid for it. But to him, we_ didn't. 

So, he had given us a table way, way back. Just good enough. 
It was way back. And one day, one of the members from The Faculty 
Club came over. He said, "What are you doing back there?" We 
said, "We're having lunch." Mrs. Curtis was Irish, so she said, 
"We're called the free loaders. So that's where we eat." He said, 
"Who called you that?" She didn't want to mention his name, just 
went like this. [gesture] He said, "Oh, no, no, no." So, after 
that we had a very nice table. We could almost sit where we wanted 

It irritated Walters to the fact that he always had to come 
real close and sort of give our table a little push. 

Oh, incredible! 
at lunch? 

The dining room was closed at dinner. But also 

When the building closed, there was no more lunch. They all went 
to The Faculty Club. And they were billed over there. They came 
and took our ledgers, because the billing was to be done over there, 
we were not going to bill them anymore. And I fought for that 
for two weeks before they got them. Then he and the bookkeeper 
came over. The two of them, they just took the ledger cards. There 
was nothing left for me to do. I was the office manager then, 
and he wanted the key to the vault and he never got it. 

The residents were still having their breakfast. 

That was all. They had all their other meals outside, 
was just a dead building, completely dead. 

So, it 

But then when they came that day, and took everything from 
the kitchen, then I alerted them. And it was Mary Lou Norrie who 
was president, at that time. But she was for the merger, very 
much so, which made it very uneasy for us. It wasn't very pleasant. 

I can't understand why it ended up being your battle. I mean, 

it just seems outrageous that there weren't other people who weren't 

there helping you. 


G-B: They couldn't help me because I was in the office and he came to 
the office. 

Riess: I know, but the president herself, I mean, Mary Lou. 

G-B: She was for it. So, that didn't help me any. Walters wanted to 
build a dining room between the two buildings, all glassed in. 
And our lounge would be where they would wait to be served . They 
could have wine over in The Faculty Club because they had the bar 
there. And then our lounge would be so that others would meet 
in our lounge and then go into this, enormous, big, beautiful glassed- 
in dining room. That was his dream. 

Riess: It sounds kind of nice doesn't it, in a way? I mean, you can see 
what a wonderful dream it was? 

G-B: Yes, but how would people get there? That's why he wanted the rest 
of our building to be torn down. Because he was going to use that 
for parking. So, that's when we started to say, "What will be 
done after you tear down our building?" That's when the cruel 
answer came. "We need parking." And that's when we started to 

Riess: Mary Lou Norrie wrote in July 1972, "The plans for the first six 
months of joint operation did not work out as well as originally 
intended. " 

G-B: It was a very hard sentence for her to say, I am sure. 

Riess: "The major faults seem to be the lack of supervision of work being 
done at our building and certain failures in communication between 
management, employees, and residents." 

G-B: That's putting it mildly. [laughter] 

Riess: Gudveig, it's hard to read these things and understand what it's 
really saying. 

G-B: I think I have been a little sharper in what I have written myself 
because I had to deal with Walters every time he came. It was 
not very pleasant. He was sure that there was something in that 
vault that would make him star, the star of everything, and if 
he brought that it would be the beginning of the merger. Can't 
you see how beautiful their club would be? And of course, I was 
the one that always had to say, "I don't have the key." 

Riess: And when Mrs. Uridge was president? 


G-B: He never asked her for the key. Probably I would say, "Oh, have 
it," I would break down, but she wouldn't. She would probably 
tell him, "No, listen you are over there and I am here." So, 
nothing of that sort. He wasn't going to have a woman tell him 

Riess: At some point in this merger period, Mrs. Uridge took over as the 
president? [president, 1973-death in 1978] 

G-B: She attended meetings over there and took notes, but she never 
said, "Yes, I am in favor of it," or "No, I am not in favor of 
it." She just went right in the middle all the way down. She 
just took notes and things. 

But in the meantime, they raided our kitchen and then they 
wanted to come back and take some more. I'm sure that those poor 
fellows that came to raid the kitchen and took everything, when 
Walters realized that I had found out that they were going to come 
and get some more, I'm sure they were fired. They were probably 
kicked from here to there for saying such a thing. Because that 
was a secret. 

11) The President and the Members, 1972-1976 

Riess: While Mrs. Uridge was diplomatically working her way through this, 
what was the feeling on the part of the club members? 

G-B: Well, there were some members that were in favor of it. They worked 
very, very hard because they were in favor of it. When the president 
Miss Norrie was in favor of it, we needed help. We really needed 
help. You wouldn't expect a president to do that, because, as 
a president, she knew the history of the club, or at least, she 
should, and realized all the work and plans and dreams of those 
that had catered to them and worked with that. She should be an 
interested president. And not just say, "Well, that's all over now. 
We have to progress." But that isn't the idea. 

The members, they'd been members for many, many years and 
the club was part of them. The merger, it didn't register at first. 
They thought, "a merger, well we could try it." Then suddenly, 
when they realized that the building would go, that's when they 
really started and that was the last minute. 

Everything progressed very slowly and suddenly, take it over 
and throw it away! Let's start something new! But I am very happy 
that somebody spoke up. 


Riess: That was Mrs. Uridge? 
G-B: Yes. 

Riess: There had been proposals to turn the building into carrels for 
the history department, and other proposals. 

G-B: Oh yes, and we had the place they started on campus where the working 
mother could leave the children. 

Riess: The Women's Center? 

G-B: Yes, we had that, because w should have that. And then we had 
all these children! You can imagine what the second and third 
floors' feelings were when they came in with the kiddies here. Then 
they put them down on the sofa and they changed the diapers on 
the sofa in the lounge. 

Riess: What were your feelings about it? 

G-B: Well, I didn't like it. No. I said, this is not a place for it. 

Riess: Was it supposed to be permanent, this arrangement? 

G-B: It was supposed to be permanent. But then it didn't seem to work 
out; there wasn't space enough and too many stairs, because they 
didn't have any place where they could wash the children or. any 
place where they could feed them except in the dining room, and 
the chairs didn't fit, luckily. The tables were too tall, luckily. 
So, it didn't work out. 

But they had offices on the second floor. They'd taken one, 
two, three of our rooms. And then everybody who lived on the second 
floor had to lock their rooms, because all of the little ones opened 
the door and they went in and had a good time looking at all these 
new things. And they didn't like to lock them. They were not 
used to having to Irck their rooms. 

Riess: Having the women's center there, did that protect the club from 
being taken over by something else? 

G-B: Yes, I think it did. Because I think the board of directors realized 
that it was built as a home, not as a building. 

Riess: "As of July 1, 1972, the representatives of the Women's Faculty 
Club, on the Joint Operating Committee, will assume complete 
responsibility for the operation and the staffing of the women's 
club building. . .The accounting and other record keeping required 


Riess: by the Women's Faculty Club, as part of the Joint Operation, in 
connection with the operation of our clubhouse, will continue to 
be provided by the Joint Operation." 

G-B: That was done over there. I don't know if any of our members had 
anything to do with it, because the billing was done there. They 
paid dues. I had to bring that over to The Faculty Club. And 
I wanted a receipt for the money, naturally. Some of it was in 
cheques but I didn't have the ledgers. So, I had them there and 
I had to bring it over to their club. Well, he didn't want me 
to have a receipt. Then I wouldn't give him the money. I said, 
"No receipt, no money." And walked out. 

Well, it angered him that I should tell him that I didn't 
want to do what he wanted me to do. And the bookkeeper over there, 
he was between the devil and the deep sea like I was. I had a 
book and I recorded everything in that book. I did not have the 
ledger cards that I could record that they had paid their dues. 
So I had this little book. I hope they still have it. Because 
everything that I brought over there is recorded in that book. 

Riess: Do you think that if you had given in to him, given him the keys, 
given him the books, given him the silver, what do you think the 
net outcome would have been? 

G-B: Well, they would still be there. 

Riess: So, even when the women's club took over its own operation, it 

would have been not feasible to go and retrieve all of that stuff? 

G-B: I doubt it. I doubt it very much. Because there were so many 

there that were in favor of this that "the women don't need their 
own club, let's make it all one; in this era of the world we should 
be all one club." 

Riess: But you think they would have hung on to the rugs and the silver? 
G-B: Oh, definitely. They hung on to everything else. 
Riess: In 1976 there was another vote on the merger. 

G-B: Yes, that was the final I trust. I left in '76. It was about 
time. I had stayed one more year later, because they wanted to 
get somebody else. It took them a year, and it shouldn't have 
taken them a year, but due to the merger 

Riess: After Peg Uridge took over, things calmed down? 


G-B : She took over when the merger started after Mary Lou left. She 
took over. She was not in favor of it, but she wasn't going to 
say so. She was smart enough and knowledgeable enough not to say, 
"yes." She wanted to find out firsthand, which, of course, saved 
the club. 

She was excellent, because she talked with everybody, laughed 
with everybody. "Oh, yes, yes." But down deep, she didn't commit 
herself at all until that final vote. 

Riess: In the meantime, the club was finding more money and friends? 

G-B: Oh, yes, then we started to have people come in and stay, and get 
some money into the club. That's when all these people started 
coming in from the different worlds. It was just wonderful. By 
that time, all the others had left the club. 

Transcriber: Kristen Vigen 
Final Typist: Catherine Winter 


14 8a 

TABLE OF CONTENTS Elizabeth Scott 

1) Family and Education 149 

2) Mathematics and Astronomy Departments, Berkeley 151 

3) Luncheon Groups at the Women's Faculty Club 153 

4) The Women's Faculty Club in the 1960s 157 

5) The Question of Merger 160 


6) The Women's Center 163 

7) Club Organization I 66 

Elizabeth Scott, Professor of Statistics, 1959 

Photo by G. Paul Bishop 


Elizabeth Scott 

February 18, 1982 

Interviewed in her office in Evans Hail, UCB 

1) Family and Education 

Scott: I was born in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, during World War I. My father 

retired when I was four years old and studied law. My family moved 
to Berkeley so that we could all go to the university. He could 
move not exactly anywhere he wanted, but he had some flexibility. 
He also wanted to be close to an army hospital because his health 
was poor and my mother's health was poor. 

Riess: Did he pursue a career in law? 

Scott: Yes. 

Riess: And was your mother a homemaker? 

Scott: Yes, but she also assisted in this law. She wasn't actually a 

lawyer. In the first place, part of the time he was having trouble 
with his eyesight because he was in an automobile accident and 
lost one eye, and the other eye was injured. So she would read 
to him. She actually participated. During World War II, my mother 
was a technician in hormone research at the university. 

I went to University High School, which was in Oakland, but 
the university had a part in its administration. It was established 
for experimental programs and to train student teachers. There 
was much more university training of teachers then, especially 
for high school. They also were having experimental courses and 
so forth. They had funds from various foundations and from the 
state for experimental programs. The school was located on Grove 
Street on purpose so that it would be in a district which was a 
low income district. Because of the special programs it would 
attract students from San Francisco and Berkeley and other places. 

Riess: Did they try to have a balanced population racially? 

Scott: That's right. Well, they wanted to have it represent this area. 
I think that was reasonably successful in doing that because the 
people in that district, close by, were admitted automatically. 







But if you weren't there, particularly if you were from Berkeley, 
you had to apply for admission. They had to restrict the number 
of people coming from outside because it was too popular for people 
coming to attend it from San Francisco and Berkeley and Piedmont 
and other places. 

Did it feel like an experimental place or just like a high school? 

Well, you know, it was the only one I ever saw, but certainly the 
student teachers played a big role in it. No, I don't think we 
noticed the experimental element very much. I don't even know 
that it was even all that strong. 

Then during World War II, afterwards somehow it got a smaller 
enrollment. No one seems to know why. They blamed [it on the 
fact] that it didn't have a good football team. Of course, it 
never had a good football team, so I don't think that was the real 

Did it channel people into the university? 

Well, it certainly was very heavy academically. There were other 
courses available, but almost everyone was taking academic programs 
and going then to the universities here. Not this university in 

Was there a strong math program? 

Yes, I mean all the courses were available, the four years [of 
math] were available. I was the only girl, however, in the upper 
courses. So there wasn't any channelling of people going into 
it. At that time I thought I wanted to be either an astronomer 
or an artist. I didn't know which one. I was carrying both those 
programs. I kept on doing that when I first came to the university. 

So you came to Cal. Did you want to go farther away if you could 

Scott: Well, I don't think I really had an option. You see, that was 

during the Depression. I really didn't have an option about going 
some place else. So, you know, I could live at home there. The 
university was very inexpensive in those days. I think it was 
$19 or something a semester. It was very inexpensive. I could 

Riess: Did you join a sorority? 


Scott: Yes, but I didn't stay in. That was for a peculiar reason. You 
know, sororities meet on Monday night. I think they still do. 
These meetings are mandatory. I had a course in astronomy, an 
observing course, which was scheduled for Monday night. So, after 
the first year I took this course and I had to become inactive 
or whatever the right word was. I just stayed inactive after that. 
I didn't really get that much out of it. 

Riess: Did you have women professors in your college days that you remember? 

Scott: No, there were none. I met some women professors, or I saw some 
women professors. Well, in physical education, of course, but 
you were thinking about academic courses. They were substitutes 
for, like Professor [G.C.] Evans, for whom this building was named, 
who taught quite a few of the courses in the programs that we took. 
We are going to have that same trouble again, I am sure. 

In September, he had to go to international meetings of some 
sort. So then someone would come and teach his course for a couple 
of times while he was gone. One time Professor [Pauline] Sperry 
did and one time Professor [Sophia] Levy did. These were the two 
women professors in the Mathematics Department. When Professor 
John Macdonald retired, Miss Levy became Mrs. Macdonald, but not 
before because of nepotism regulations. 

It was through Miss Sperry that I first went to the Women's 
Faculty Club. She was active in the Women's Faculty Club. I didn't 
know [about] it at the time. She gathered together several women 
graduate students in the physical sciences and invited us to lunch. 
She took us over there and encouraged us to join. For graduate 
students at that time, it would certainly cost very little. It 
was 50c in those days, as I recall. 

Riess: What year was that? 

Scott: Oh that must have been 1941 or 1942. It was already during the 

2) Mathematics and Astronomy Departments, Berkeley 

Riess: Wartime. That is traditionally the time when the strength of women 
on campus is greatest. 

Scott: On the contrary, it was not at all like that. I was a teaching 
assistant, but I don't think it had anything to do with the war. 
Then I stopped being a teaching assistant. I was teaching astronomy. 


Scott: I started being a research assistant on this war project that 
[Jerzy] Neyman had and I couldn't do them both at once. Then 
occasionally I would go and be a lecturer in mathematics. I would 
change back and forth. 

Riess: That was when the statistics was just the Statistical Laboratory? 

Scott: Well, you see, the Statistics Department didn't exist at that time. 
It was part of the Mathematics Department. It had quite a little 
autonomy, in teaching and in appointments, and it was actually on 
the line budget; the Statistical Laboratory showed on the budget. 

Neyman prepared that part of the budget and the courses and 
so forth. Although it wasn't a separate department, it had almost 
all the autonomy of a separate department, but that was something 
that he fought for. 

Riess: I thought it was an accepted tenet that when war comes, men go 
to war and women are offered more tenured positions. 

Scott: No, you didn't see that happening here nor in any other prestigious 
university. There were some professors who went away. That's 
true: [Charles B. Morrey, for example, and others. Some professor 
did go away to work in Aberdeen or someplace like that.] But, that 
did not mean that women were appointed except as occasional lecturers. 
There were few women students. 

Oh, there was one assistant professor, Ann Davis, but it was 
just very unusual to have women students here. Julia Robinson 
was a student. Very, very few. 

Riess: Now you are talking in mathematics. 

Scott: In mathematics. In astronomy there were a few more, but still 
very few. 

Riess: Is astronomy a sort of sister to mathematics? 

Scott: Well, the proportion of women has always been higher in graduate 
astronomy than in mathematics. 

In those days there was another problem. At that time women 
were not allowed to use the Mount Wilson telescopes, the big tele 
scopes in California. It was just forbidden. That went on for 
many years. 

Riess: Forbidden! 


Scott: Well, it is not too often that you can actually put your finger 
on a discrimination and you know that you really can prove that 
it was there. That was actually a well known fact. There was 
no secret about it. Women were not allowed to use the big telescopes 
at Mt. Wilson, the 60-inch and 100-inch. 

Women were not on the staff. There are no women on the staff 
at the Mount Wilson and Palomar Observatories (the Hale Observa 
tories, we call them now) at the present time. Only as assistants, 
not as staff members, not as astronomers. 

Riess: How about Lick? 

Scott: Lick was different, there was no problem at Lick Observatory. I 
was encouraged to go up there. I actually spent several summers 
at Lick Observatory. No problem at all. [C. Donald] Shane, who 
was chairman at Berkeley at that time, encouraged me always. He 
arranged for me to spend a summer at Mount Wilson Observatory in 
Pasadena assisting. But I wasn't allowed to use a telescope. 
Other students who spent the summer there got to assist at the 
telescope but not me. 

Well, that is just the way it was. There were quite a few 
women there who were assistants. They were called computers. We 
would now call them maybe programmers or something like that. Each 
one of them told me that I was really making a mistake trying to 
get a Ph.D. in astronomy, because if I had a Ph.D. then they would 
say that I was overqualif ied to work in astronomy. I wouldn't 
be able to get a job in astronomy and I think that was really quite 

Riess: Was this an issue, then, that people were fighting? And you your 

Scott: No, I never heard anything of resistance and I didn't. I felt that 
one "can't fight city hall." I just did whatever I could do. I 
could go there and see what happened and do many things but not 
everything. People were very nice to me but I didn't get to use 
the telescope. I didn't get invited to the luncheons and so forth. 
I was just treated differently. 

3) Luncheon Groups at the Women's Faculty Club 

Riess: When Pauline Sperry invited you to join the Women's Faculty Club, 
or come to the meetings, how did she present it? 


Scott: Oh, she took us to lunch first just so we could see what it was 
like. She asked us if we would be interested in doing that. I 
don't know whether everybody said yes. That was my impression 
there was general agreement that we could eat there, both lunch 
and dinner. We rarely did eat there although at that time there 
were a let fewer places to eat than there are now. 

Riess: It was a lunch club, that was all? 

Scott: No, she also said there are other activities going on. Actually, 
at that particular time there weren't many other activities going 
on. There were annual dinners and things like that. There weren't 
luncheon meetings of other sorts, which had happened earlier in 
the 1920s as I saw from the old minutes, and actually Josephine 
Smith talked to me about it too. 

There used to be regular kinds of meetings where people 
presented academic papers to get experience and criticism of these 
papers, discussion about them before they presented them in other 
places around, or at the same time they present them at other places, 
Anyway, to support each other. Actually, there were more women 
faculty proportionately in the early 1920s than there were later. 

Riess: Yes, interesting, isn't it? 

Josephine Miles talks about a group of twelve women that had 
that kind of lunch and sharing of research papers in the 1940s 
or 1950s. 

Scott: No, that I didn't even know about. I knew about this earlier one 
in the 1920s but that would be before she came here. You know, 
it was her idea to start it again here. When did we first start? 
Maybe three years ago or four years ago. We really worked hard 
at it. What happens is that only what you might call old-timers 
come. The new people for whom we really had it in mind, thinking 
that we are helping, don't come. So, they certainly aren't getting 
any help. I am not quite clear whether it would be helpful or 
not, but they don't turn up. 

The reason partly is, and I have the same trouble myself, 
you get lots of classes and lots of meetings at noon time. You 
just get loaded up at noon time. I don't think that is the only 
reason. Once they get into trouble, like their promotion doesn't 
go through, then they come with some enthusiasm. By that time 
it is really hard to do anything in order to help them. 

Riess: So you are describing more a support group than sharing research. 


Scott: Well, we didn't want it to be just a support group. We were trying 

for academic interaction. We didn't want to think of it as a support 
group, indeed, quite a few people felt there was enough of those 
support groups already. 

Riess: The 1960s, yes, but now? 

Scott: They exist but they are very inactive. So we really ought to have 
something where the Women's Faculty Club would be doing something 
for women faculty, getting them the chance to participate on some 
kind of academic endeavors. They just don't seem to really be 
interested. I don't know what to do about it. Right now we are 
about ready to throw in the towel. We might as well meet and have 
lunch after all, instead of trying to get a response. 

Another problem that has always been with us is the number 
of faculty in the club. There are not very many women faculty 
anyway, so they couldn't have a club all by themselves. They need 
to have other people there. I am in favor of having other women 
there. I think that is just fine. But when I first came in, I 
always had the impression it was being run by the librarians. I 
mean, one probably had different impressions at different times. 
It depends on who is in charge at any particular time. It just 
seemed as if they were running everything. 

In particular, I came into a huge disagreement. There was 
another woman statistician at that time, Evelyn Fix. She since 
died. But, we nominated a woman who was working actually in the 
Radiation Lab, but also on the campus maybe she was in Donner 
Lab, I don't remember the details but with a Ph.D., and publishing 
papers, and so forth, to be a member of the Women's Faculty Club. 
Before I did it, I asked her if she would be interested and she 
said yes. 

Then, to my horror, she was turned down because she wasn't 
a member of the faculty. I really got very unhappy about that 
because women researchers were, I thought, just as good if not 
better than women secretaries or women librarians. I just couldn't 
see why she was turned down. There was just some trivial inter 
pretation of the by-laws. It didn't mention the word researchers, 
and I was just really unhappy about that. 

So, I said, and Evelyn also said, I think several of us said, 
"If she is not admitted we're going to resign." We came to a real 
impasse over that. I was just amazed that this was happening there. 
So they changed their opinion after some months and agreed to admit 
her. She died six months later. That was a really unfortunate 
kind of situation. 








When was this? 

It must have been the late 1940s. I don't remember that now. 

That's a period in the club that's described as sluggish. 

Nothing much was happening. They weren't making extensive efforts 
to get new members or anything like that. Actually, this woman 
also was the wife of a member of our department, Stefan Peters, 
who was teaching actuarial science and statistics in those days. 

When Pauline Sperry approached Josephine Miles to join the club, 
she said, "You owe it to women to do this." 

It may be that she told us that too. It could be, it would be 
just like here*. 

Was she a real feminist? 

Not to an extreme, but to a certain extent, yes. 
outstanding mathematician. You know, adequate, 
and pleasant person. 

She was not an 
She was a quiet 

You weren't being beaten down in your own department so that you 
would find a refuge in the Women's Faculty Club? 

Well, no, I certainly wasn't thinking about that. My departments 
were quite supportive. I certainly had problems. I am sure that 
other women must have felt that too. But it didn't occur to me 
that the Women's Faculty Club would help me with these problems, 
let's put it that way. And it didn't. 

The most supportive person for us was Neyman, for Evelyn Fix 
and myself and the other women who have been in this department. 
I think it just was his personality. Not very many outstanding 
statisticians would ever have women students, or a woman appointment. 
He was just very unusual in that respect. 

Were there any other places that you would get together with women? 

Oh, yes, but we did not meet as women; we met as students and then 
as junior faculty. The atmosphere was friendly. 

What was your living arrangement? 

I lived at home. I still do so that hasn't changed at all. It 
is still the same place. The only time I didn't would be when 
I went to Lick Observatory or went to Stanford or something like 
that; or on a sabbatical. 


4) The Women's Faculty Club in the 1960s 

Riess: It looks like the Women's Faculty Club dealt with the merger issue 
from 1966 to 1976. 

Scott: I don't know when it first came up. I just remember that there 
was a good deal of worry before that time that no one was doing 
anything. It was just kind of running down. The membership was 
getting smaller and so forth. I think actually the same thing 
was happening in the Men's Faculty Club simultaneously. We also 
knew that people weren't joining there. People who were joining 
weren't really paying any attention to what was going on. 

There were several people who tried to do something about 
it. One was Doras Briggs. Have you talked to her? 

Riess: No, I haven't. 

Scott: And Marian Diamond, and several other people were active. It must 
have been in the early 1960s. 

The merger wasn't really under discussion then. It was just 
to kind of bring the Women's Faculty Club back to life and have 
it be a viable place. Also to repair all kinds of things which 
obviously needed repairing: install private bathrooms, you know. 
It was really getting quite run down. It was already some fifty 
years old. And looked it. 

That was one of the things that people were worried about. 
There was kind of a slow change. When I first became a member, 
almost everyone who lived there had lived there for many, many 
years. That was their home. They acted as if they really were 
running the place. It was there not exactly for their benefit, 
but you know what I mean. It was kind of funny. Like, when you 
would bring a visitor there, there wasn't any staff there to take 
care of them. So, if Miss May Dornin [resident] hadn't taken care 
of them, they never would have been able to find their room, where 
you are supposed to go for breakfast, or the key. We used to get 
the keys in advance. 

It wasn't well organized from the point of view of having 
visitors come. Visitors clearly wasn't what anybody had intended. 
It was organized for these permanent people. Some were a little 
on the quaint side, and it was interesting for the visitors, anyway- 
"just like Cambridge." 

Riess: It was in a fairly weakened position then. 


Scott: I really think so. Then there was this threat to do away with the 
Women's Faculty Club and enlarge the School of Optometry to the 
space the club occupied, just to completely get rid of it. That's 
the way we heard the story described first, to get the space away 
from us. 

Then, in order to have some place to put these women, "Let 
them join the Men's Faculty Club." But at that time we weren't 
even allowed to go in and eat in most of the dining rooms of the 
Men's Faculty Club. I was physically evicted from there more than 

Riess: You mean you made the mistake of trying to get in? 

Scott: No, I was eating in some room where we had a reservation. For 

one example I guess the most striking one there is a room called 
the Director's Room that is on the corner. It had a round table. 
This was some kind of olive association [meeting] . You know, this 
silly grading that olives are medium, large, blah, blah sizes up 
to jumbo. Well, they were having some meeting. (I don't know 
why they thought a statistician would really help them.) Anyway, 
they were meeting with statisticians to discuss how their sizing 
could be redone and so forth. (I liked it the way it was before. 
So I didn't even want to redo it.) But anyway, we hardly made 
any progress on this luncheon at all when in came a man 'called 
Mr. Smith who was a desk, a counter employee. He ordered me to 
leave. Because I wasn't a member, therefore, I could not be eating 
in this room, only members were allowed to eat in that room. 

I was angry and embarrassed. So I said, "Well, you know that 
very few people in this room are members. Why do you pick on me?" 
He said, "Because I can look at you and see that you are not a 
member. The other people I don't know." (Actually, I think he 
knew every member very well, but that is detail.) Well, anyway, 
they all got up and went out. And none of us paid. 

You know, that doesn't really help that much. I was really 
unhappy about the whole thing and it was very embarrassing. Then 
we had to go somewhere else to get lunch and the whole thing was 
a big flap. 

Riess: But it didn't lead to internal reform at the men's club? 

Scott: I protested to Professor Shane the first time that happened to 

me. He said, "You just shouldn't take it so seriously. You can 
just say that you could get thrown out of better places." I didn't 
think that was the right attitude to take. He just didn't attach 
that much importance to it . 


Scott: There had been changes. I think Miss Miles told me that when she 
first caine to Berkeley, you couldn't even enter the building. In 
the '50s and "60s women could enter certain rooms, but not the 
whole building. Now, women can join and there are no restrictions. 

Anyway, I know that people were trying to get that space. 
It is not quite clear whether they really could, it may have been 
a lot of talk. The use of this land was given by the Regents to 
the women faculty for this purpose. It is not that easy to undo 
something like that. 

There was a plan where they would destroy Senior Men's Hall. 
Then, "This is an historic building. You can't destroy it." 

Riess: What does go on there, incidentally? 

Scott: Well, now it is condemned. You see, I don't think it is even 
sensible to have it condemned, because it is a perfectly good 
building. The reason I was told, but I don't know whether it is 
really even true, that it is condemned because there is no running 
water inside of it. That is a trivial thing to change. I mean 
it could cost something but it couldn't cost very much. The big 
argument was whether the foundations were good. Anyway, it is 
just not used at all now. I think it is really wasteful. It would 
be a nice place to have for meetings. They used to have senior 
men actually meet there. Then they were having folk dancing which 
was popular at the time. There were some complaints from the Men's 
Faculty Club that they made too much noise folk dancing. I think 
they could survive that. 

Riess: It makes me wonder just what kind of men really joined the Men's 
Faculty Club. 

Scott: Well, you see, that was the same thing. At that time, almost all 
of the men who were living in the Men's Faculty Club were old- 
timers who were living there permanently. That was their home. 

Riess: So there was that kind of cranky element. But as far as the club 
having a real powerful role on campus the Women's Faculty Club 
was sluggish, how about the men's? 

Scott: I think it also was to a large extent. There are certain people 

who meet there and it is still true today. There are certain tables 
where people meet who are known very well to be local politicians 
in the campus. [Joseph] Hodges, for example, goes to one of these 
tables every day at eleven o'clock, just like a clock, off he goes. 
I don't know that they are as important as they think they are 
important in local academic politics, running things, getting and 
making appointments and so forth. Nothing official, entirely 


5) The Question of Merger 

Riess: How were you involved, then, in the club in the 1960s? 

Scott: Well, I certainly didn't want to have the club disappear. At first, 
I heard that it was going to be destroyed. Just at that time, 
we had already spent the last five years really working hard, raising 
money and so forth to refurbish it and repair termite damage and 
the whole bit. So it just seemed a little too much that all of 
a sudden they are going to tear it all down, after all of this 
struggle by women faculty and women at University Hall and other 
women who really spent lots of time and effort doing that. They 
also started working and getting more people, getting the membership 
to go back up again. That just seemed to me to be entirely inappro 
priate. Some members, such as Florence Minard, were active in 
trying to preserve the club. 

Riess: This fundraising was on a women's club level; it wasn't on a grand 

Scott: No, no, it was local. 

Riess: You didn't feel able to go back to the Regents for funding? 

Scott: The Women's Faculty Club never went to the Regents for funding. 
The Men's Faculty Club did that, but the Women's Faculty Club, 
I don't know why they didn't do it. It has always been their policy 
not to borrow money from the Regents. They had a mortgage once, 
which they financed, and they burned that mortgage and then were 
entirely clear and entirely independent. 

I think they felt that they didn't really need to borrow money, 
if we increased the rents, which they should have before then, 
so that the rooms were really paying for themselves, plus a little 
bit for repair. That was a real cause of trouble, that they didn't 
have a repair fund. They wovld be able to just take care of them 
selves. There were also some gifts from members. Whereas the 
Men's Faculty Club borrowed a huge amount of money in order to 
build a bigger wing and to refurbish the parts that they had before. 
They have trouble with interest payments and were not repaying 
the loan. 

Riess: Well, I know, I certainly have some thoughts about how that is 

just typical of the way men would deal with money and the way women 
would deal with money. 


Scott: Yes, it may well be true. When the money was given by Levi Strauss, 
in honor of [Roger] Heyns and in honor of [Clark] Kerr, the donor 
had the idea that the two clubs would join and that they would 
admit not only faculty, but faculty wives and other persons. He 
had a lot of changes which he had in mind that were supposed to 
take place. I don't know how enthusiastic everybody was about 
this, but I don't think there was any objection to having more 
faculty and more faculty wives belong to the Women's Faculty. 
I don't think that was a real problem. 

The problem was, should we or should we not join with the 
Men's Faculty Club? There were several things, one of them we 
just finished mentioning. This was the huge debt that they had. 
There were a lot of women who were convinced that once you joined 
the two clubs, then you had your share of the debt. If you divide 
the debt up among the membership, it was an appreciable load for 
each person to take on, if somebody did the arithmetic. Anyway, 
this was one of the arguments. 

The other argument, used by Laura Nader and quite a few other 
people, was: look at the way they treated us all these years, 
why should we have anything to do with them? I think that argument 
was very telling too. We found out that she also had been tossed 
out of the Men's Faculty Club more than once. She was more agile 
than I. She went around, climbed in a window, and came right back 
in again. [laughter] 

Riess: Had she been active in the women's club? 

Scott: Not that I noticed. I think everyone is very busy. I have not 
been active in it either. I am very busy. 

Riess: Well, you got your name at the end of various petitions and onto 
various committees. 

Scott: Well, that is true, and then for a while I was a member of the 
board. I worked and I really did my share. But I probably did 
less than any other board member. 

Riess: Was this when Peg Uridge was the president? 

Scott: She was a very good and a very active president and really worked 
in bringing the club up. She really worked hard on trying to 
arrange this merger. For a while we had joint bookkeeping and 
their bookkeeping was so awful. You never got a correct bill. 

At that time, the manager that they had was very inefficient 
and obnoxious. It wasn't a propitious time to have a merger. If 
they asked today, I think people would be more willing. 


Riess: Well, I think that if men and women merge in such a situation the 
women would end up sort of bailing the club out. 

Scott: That is what many people claim. We tried very hard to get some 

way of voting that, at least as far as the property was concerned, 
would be fair, and that was not agreeable. Anyway, eventually, 
the Women's Faculty Club voted against the merger and therefore 
the Men's Faculty Club didn't even vote. I have a very strong 
hunch that they would have voted against the merger too. I don't 
know, but just from the people that I talk to. 

Riess: Josephine Miles said that you called her in to fight the merger 
and you halted the momentum of the merger, and you went in and 
bucked up this exhausted board that had no sense any longer of 
direction to take. 

Scott: I certainly didn't stage a big fight against the merger but I wanted 
a fair merger. I said I just didn't know which way I wanted. I 
was in favor of merger for some reasons if it would save the 
Women's Faculty Club, I thought the club should be saved, the club 
house should be saved. But if it would destroy the integrity, 
then no. I spoke in both ways. 

Riess: You were on a committee that included some of the die-hard anti- 
merger people. 

Scott: That's right but that was near the end of this period. As time 

went on, more and more people were opposed, and they started lining 
themselves up. I was on a committee concerned with this, especially 
at the end, as time went on, and especially when I saw the voting 
plan under the merger: the way they were going to have the voting, 
and that they were going to charge very high initiation fees which 
would go only towards retiring the debt of the Men's Faculty Club, 
and that they were going to charge very high dues, even to younger 
people then I was just completely opposed because we never would 
get any women faculty because nobody can afford it, and who would 
want to pay a bjg initiation fee to bail out the Men's Faculty 
Club. It doesn't make sense. 

Riess: Sounds like a hard thing was to make a strong argument for the 
Women's Faculty Club. 

Scott: No. We had good support. At first, it was very curious. This 

money that was given was given in two pieces: I think maybe they 
got some and then asked for some more and got some more. Anyway, 
it came in two pieces. The first part, that was split between 
the Men's Faculty Club and the Women's Faculty Club. It was supposed 
to be used on the buildings. 


Scott: It was split in proportion to the membership, so the Women's 

Faculty Club got little. We used the part that we got to put in 
those fire sprinklers. (Somebody from California Hall said that 
that is what we have to use it for; for something like our club 
house, sprinklers are now mandated, and that we are not living 
up to code.) We agreed it would be important for safety. There 
was a lot of discussion about how to put them in so they wouldn't 
be too conspicuous. I think they did reasonably well. They 
certainly are not beautiful, but anyway. So that was put in. Then 
the other part of the money went for some termite work in some 
other part, a lot of which was also paid by the Women's Faculty 
Club itself. 

Then all of a sudden somebody in the legal part of California 
Hall I think Pete Smith decided that that was illegal, that none 
of the money should go to the Women's Faculty Club, because it 
was supposed to go to a merger and therefore should go to the Men's 
Faculty Club. We were really angry when that happened. We really 
made a fight about that. I mean that's outrageous, an arbitrary 
decision. Eventually, they paid all the bills for the changes. 
Rumor had it, but I really don't know what really happened, that 
the donor's money all did go to the Men's Faculty Club, and the 
money that paid this bill for doing the change-over in the Women's 
Faculty Club came from some other funds. I don't know whether 
that is a true story or not. I just really don't know, but that's 
what I kept hearing. 

Riess: When you say, "We got really angry," who is the "we" at this point? 

Scott: Well, it probably was Josephine Miles and Peg Uridge and myself, 
but also the members. I think everybody in the Women's Faculty 
Club who was aware of the problem. Most people probably never 
even heard it. 

6) The Women's Center 

Riess: I wondered whether, at least, all of this activity had the effect 
of bringing you all somewhat closer together, or that it did some 
thing fo- the club itself. 

Scott: Well, there is another thing that was going on at the same time 
which I found very troubling. For some years I think it was 
partly through the Prytanean Society, but actually quite a few 
women were interested in trying to set up what is now the Women's 
Center on the campus. When that center was first ':p, it was 
meeting in the Women's Faculty Club. 


Scott: I thought that was really a very good use of the Women's Faculty 
Club, that they used those downstairs rooms which were empty most 
of the time. I think they used one or two rooms upstairs which 
the club could afford to rent for offices. But, it is very 
interesting. Many women, older members, felt that this was 
terrible because these people were going to wear out the furniture, 
they are going to spill food on the rug. You know how people talk. 
Who cares? 

Anyway, they really were hostile. The people in the center 
couldn't help but feel this hostility. I think it was really 
unfortunate. So there were these other themes which were going 
on at the same time. Eventually the center was given space in 
a temporary building. 

Riess: Well, there was the talk about the diapers on the landing. 

Scott: I know, how many times did that happen? I don't believe it ever 

happened to tell you the truth, but you know what I mean. [laughter] 
This is typical of the way they talk. I just could not get excited 
about that. But there were plenty of women who talked that way. 
It is very curious. 

Riess: Tell me about Harriet Nicewonger. 

Scott: I didn't really know her. I know that she was active in the library 
and things like that, of the Women's Faculty Club. I didn't 
really know her. 

Riess : How about Emily Huntington? 

Scott: Well, Emily Huntington I knew in a different way, you see. When 
the Statistical Laboratory was first started, so in 1938, she was 
a professor or associate professor don't ask me of economics, 
the only woman in economics at that time, and she was doing some 
kind of labor study, cost of living study of women. She came to 
the department for advice and that is how I first met her. Neyman 
ana I helped her with some of the studies that she was doing, and 
some other studies that she did later on student housing and so 
forth. We helped her with that. The Statistical Laboratory had 
a board of advisors, or whatever the jargon would be, a really 
unofficial board, but it was useful in discussions with the Mathe 
matics Department. At least part of the time she was a member 
of this board. 

Riess: So you know her through that association. 


Scott: That's right. Neyman knew her. Then, I remember that she was 

already getting older and maybe she was already retired, or almost 
retired I don't remember the details by the time this big thing 
about the merger was. I don't remember her role in that particularly, 
It just isn't in my mind. 

Riess: But there must have been some women for whom the merger would mean, 
"At last, a chance to be in the men's club!" 

Scott: I didn't notice that. I would say definitely "No." 
Riess: Well, Laura Nader? 

Scott: No, she had the opposite opinion. She actually spoke in the 

opposite way, that we just don't want to have anything to do with 
them after the way they treated us. 

Riess: I see, because their record had been so foul. 

Scott: Yes. She wasn't the only one, but she spoke very vocally. 

Riess: You were on a committee of five to prepare a proposal to combine 
using the men's as the main clubhouse and the women's for multi- 
use, including Prytanean. Also on this committee was Peg Uridge 
and Katharine Stauffer, Mary Ann Johnson, Ruth Donnelly. 

Scott: Ruth Donnelly was very active. Yes, I remember, very much so. 

Riess: You worked out a proposal in June 19, 1971. Then, the next year 
there was a brand new committee of five, Dorothy Randolph, Martha 
Stumpf, Collette Seiple, Roberta Park. This ousting of the old 
committee of five, did this mean anything? 

Scott: No, I think this just shows that there wasn't general agreement 

about what should be done with the Women's Faculty Club. I probably 
got appointed when one thing should be done. I could see having 
this women's center there. I certainly was in a minority on that. 
Many of the women were in favor of having a women's center there, 
but not all by any matter of means. I was shocked at how many 
were really opposed to having a women's center there. 

Riess: I suppose the residents were opposed. 

Scott: Residents were opposed. They weren't the only ones. Somehow or 
other, this business that you might hurt the furniture, you might 
hurt the rugs, you might spill something I was just shocked by 


Riess: It wasn't that these women were younger and more issue-oriented. 

Scott: That wasn't brought up, and that was what really bothered me. If 
that was the real cause of trouble, I wouldn't have objected so 
much. It was just property oriented. I thought that was dis 

7) Club Organization 

Riess: Josephine Miles describes the board meetings, the ad hominem argu 
ments, and always the detail, detail, detail. 

Scott: Yes, the meetings last too long. I am all in agreement with her 
about that. It is certainly true. I think it is just as true 
of men's meetings and others. I went to a meeting at the YWCA 
today, just drove me crazy, and I only stayed there for twenty 
minutes. You know, you can waste more time on nothing. 

Riess: So it takes a very strong woman to kind of override all of that? 

Scott: Or to kind of relax through it, so to speak, until you get to 
something more important to talk about. 

Riess: But I mean very strong presidents. Has there ever been faculty 
member presidents? 

Scott: Yes, there have been, but not very often. Marian Diamond was. 

Who else? I think that the one trouble would be that it is unusual 
that a woman faculty member has enough time. It takes quite a 
little time. 

It is partly the way it is organized, which changes. We had 
the managers participate. Now, it is organized in such a way that 
the manager and the assistant manager are not invited to the 
meeting, even for a short time. They don't get any directions 
from the board itself. The president gives them the directions. 
That takes a lot of time on her part, to supervise those directions, 
and I think it kind of makes them a whole echelon lower down. 

My idea of how to run a club is that although the manager 
shouldn't be setting the club policy, she ought to really be 
participating. If you want to change the policy you ought to 
explain to the manager why and give her a chance to say, "Well, 
this is not a good change." That is not happening now. I think 
it is too dictatorial. I think that is the funny thing that happens. 
Dictatorial in small things. Little tiny things get all blown 
out of importance. 


Riess: There was a suggestion in one of the memos I read that Henna Kay 
and Natalie Davis and Richard Jennings and Robert Cockrell, would 
be able to put the women's point of view over to the men. I don't 
know what that situation might have been. I wondered if that brings 
anything to mind. 

Scott: Well, I don't know exactly what it is talking about, but generally 
speaking, there would be a certain amount of truth in the following 
sense: At that time, as I tried to describe to you before, in 
the merger there was the problem: Who is going to vote? Where 
is the money going to go? How much money are you going to charge? 
And so forth. We were just losing out from our point of view on 
all decisions. I don't even know for sure who was the member of 
the committee at that time, probably Mrs. Uridge because she was 
the president. I don't know who else was a member of the committee 
at that time. I think it was felt that we should have a special 
committee to go and talk to the Men's Faculty Club board of directors, 
to make clear exactly what the causes of disagreement were. 

Riess: The selection of this group is heavily weighted on the side of 
the law. 

Scott: Well, but Hernia Kay is a very persuasive speaker. At that time, 
and still today, but at that time even more so, she was a leading 
member of the [Academic] Senate. Natalie Davis was also very 

Riess: Since men have become members of the women's club a little current 
history do you think that it has given it a new strength? 

Scott: Well, you see, something interesting happens that we see, they 
always try to put and they explain that to you at least one 
faculty member on the board of directors. Usually it is only one. 
Now they are putting one on, but it is one of the men faculty 
members. It is kind of like a token. And it keeps happening. 
You kill two birds with one stone. [laughs] That is the way I 
felt sitting there, listening to the nominations. I don't care. 
I didn't say anything. I couldn't help but get this reaction because 
there is this talk about 17 percent of the members are men, so 
we need to have a man on the board of directors. 

Riess: And what percentage is faculty? If 17 percent are men? 

Scott: I don't know, probably 17 percent, probably. It is not many, that 
is for sure. I really don't know, and I expect no one knows. 

Riess: When you say "they" tried to put, aren't they elected? 


Scott: But the nominating committee is somewhat circular in the sense 
that there is just one name for each vacancy. Well, you could 
nominate other people, that is for sure but no one ever does. 
The nominating committee is appointed by the board, but pretty 
much by the president. 

Riess: I think that if there is only one faculty member on the board, 
why that is a real sad state of affairs. 

Scott: Well, there is no such law, don't misunderstand me. I think it 

is almost the other way around, that it is not easy to find people 
who want to serve on the board of directors because it takes time 
and energy. The probably don't think it is all that important. 

Riess: The group that lunches and talks about women's problems and so 

on, and so on; Susan Ervin-Tripp, is that what you were referring 

Scott: Yes, she is one of the people who participates in it very strongly. 

And she arranges other meetings in the club with young women faculty. 
Invites them to lunch with her. 

Riess: So it does exist now, this group? 

Scott: Yes. But I think this year it has only met I was out of town 
when it met I think it only met once in the fall. Earlier we 
used to try to meet once a month. We are trying to meet once a 
quarter. I don't know, we should call them and find out. I think 
the person who is organizing it right this minute is Helen Eckert 
of physical education. 

Riess: It is only faculty? 

Scott: Well, some non-faculty administrators are encouraged to come. But 
the aim was at faculty, especially at young faculty. I think it 
is petering out. 

Additionally there is another ad hoc group, the Association 
of Academic Women, started earlier. When this group was putting 
pressure on to have more women appointed, and more women graduate 
students and so forth, it was very active. Now, even though people 
feel that not all of our problems are solved, we only meet when 
there is something coming up, or there is something that we would 
want to form a committee and go and talk to the chancellor about, 
or whatever the case may be. 

Riess: The association, is that something with branches on other campuses? 


Scott: No, it is a completely local ad hoc group. There are similar groups 
though. I don't think they even collected any dues for two or 
three years. That will tell you how inactive it is. 

Riess: If you had to fight the fight to keep the Women's Faculty Club 
intact again, would you? 

Scott: Oh I think so, yes. Well, you see, again, I am still of two minds 

because when people in other universities hear that we have a women's 
faculty club, and a men's faculty club, they think that is ridiculous. 
I agree. They don't have that. In other universities women could 
enter various rooms in the faculty clubhouse if they used the back 
door or some such. I have done that in the past at Harvard, at 

But that shows that things were even worse at Berkeley. Women 
were not allowed to enter The Faculty Club fifty or sixty years 
ago by any door. So they were essentially forced to form their 
own club. I think it is an unusual situation, and just kind of 
left over from that unusual situation. It doesn't mean that it 
should be maintained forever. Probably the system that we have 
now, that men can join the women's and women can join the men's, 
gets around this big inequity in dues problem. That is probably 
the main reason that you have so many men joining the Women's Faculty 
Club. It is much, much cheaper. 

Riess: I guess the issue is anything but totally dead. 

Scott: Well, I think that is okay, you know. Right now, at least, we 
say the food is better and I think that is probably still true. 

Final Typist: 

Beverly Butcher 
Catherine Winter 




1) Women's Faculty Club Board 

2) Lunch Groups 17 

3) Faculty Club Funding, Memberships, Parties 172 

4) The Question of Where to Have Lunch 175 

5) Administrative Interests 

Marian C. Diamond, Professor of Anatomy, 1982 


Marian Diamond 

September 17, 1981 

Interviewed in her office in the Life Sciences Building, UCB 

1) Women's Faculty Club Board 

Riess: A look in the Women's Faculty Club files shows me that when you 
were on the board you worked very, very hard at fund-raising 
projects. Would you recall for me some of those undertakings, 
and which of them were most successful? 

Diamond: We had a marvelous time with our fund-raising projects and raised 
about $32,000 in all. Doras Briggs was a real assistant through 
out. Many helped. It was a very social, cooperative effort. 
We had foreign dinners, a cocktail party on the bay, and many 
very enjoyable events, which proved most successful. The dining 
room, before our efforts, was a dull, mossy green where few came. 
The new room is as lovely, lively a luncheon room as we could 
find anywhere. 

[question off tape about talk of merger of the men's and 
women's faculty clubs] I think everybody was interested in 
evaluating a merger, but whether they were supporting it, I can't 
say. During our time we felt very good because we [Women's Faculty 
Club] were operating in the black and they [The Faculty Club] were 
operating in the red. There weren't many benefits to be gained 
for us by merging at that time. But without money you can't 
run the club. When you're operating the club in the red, you're 
very self-conscious about your abilities. [laughs] The money 
aspect is a very realistic aspect, because the social, the academic 
and the intellectual aspects we can get elsewhere. 

2) Lunch Groups 

Riess: It's interesting that you say you could get the intellectual 
and social aspects of being with your peers elsewhere. 

Diamond: You could with the men, if you wanted to, in your departments, 

you know; if you make that effort, it was available there. But 

you didn't know where the other women were on campus. And the only 

place you were going to know that was through the Women's Faculty 


Riess: What about the many women faculty who don't join? 

Diamond: I really don't know. Some of us are just more social than others. 
Four or five years ago I did organize at the club what we called 
Ben's Forum, twelve senior women professors, and we meet once 
a quarter, and I like very much to meet with those women. I 
feel I'm touching base with them and I am finding out what they 
are doing in their disciplines, whether it is chemistry or 
astronomy or psychology or whatever. I find that is extremely 
satisfying, from a basic academic woman's point of view. 

Riess: I've been looking for evidence of something like that in the 

Diamond: I did it myself. I just picked women out there that I admired. 
I didn't know them. Elizabeth Scott, Susan Ervin-Tripp, Bobbie 
[Babette] Barton, Phyllis Blair. We didn't have anyone in physics 
so I went to Hayward State and asked Ann Birge you know, Birge 
Hall, the granddaughter, I guess, of Professor [Raymond T.] Birge. 
We didn't have anybody in business, so I got Sarah Staubus who- 
is a professor at Hayward State. Two very fine women, with 
families. People I admired. Josephine Miles was another. I've 
got the whole list here in my book but I'm just naming off some 
of these twelve outstanding women. 

So we meet once a quarter and we go around the table and sort 
of say what's new with us and what's bothering us at the present 
time, and you get an insight into common problems that we each 
face, whether they are personal or professional. And I really 
love it. We talk about having socials in the evening, but we 
only had one they all came to my house one night, with spouses 
or friends, for a potluck. I like the feeling that they are 
all out there, even though I don't see them. 

Riess: It's unaff iliated, even though you use the Women's Faculty Club 
for your lunches? 

Diamond: We did, until they gave us a difficulty with trying to get a 

room once. They had a conflict. So then I moved over into the 
men's club, because I was on their board then. So, would you 
believe, we're meeting at the men's club at the present time. 
They like the executive room in the men's club, the one Chancellor 
Bowker had design- d for $32,000 for him to entertain his VIPs. 
And since I'm on the board they let me use that for the ladies. 
It's interesting the way we play back and forth. [laughter] 

Riess: Was there any reason to think you couldn't have continued to 
meet at the women's club? 


Diamond: We could have gone back. It was just that that time it was awkward. 
Riess: But is there an awkwardness of having an ingroup within the group? 
Diamond: No, I think that's marvelous. 

Then from what we established, Elizabeth Scott thought, 
"Let's go back to having a women's faculty meeting maybe once 
a month and having each faculty member speak about her profession." 
So, we'd meet for lunch for the first half-hour and the second 
half-hour we'd talk about what was new in our fields. That was 
very nice, and that wasn't restricted that was any women faculty 
member who wanted to join. 

Ben's Forum consisted of twelve, because Benjamin Franklin 
had twelve men that he met with just to discuss issues of interest 
to the group. 

Riess: Do they all appear regularly? 

Diamond: Actually, the only time that everyone came was when President 
[David] Saxon wanted to meet Ben's Forum. I thought that was 
precious! Every single lady showed up for that, all twelve. 
But Herma Kay doesn't show up on a regular basis. I send her 
invitations because I'd like to know her better, but she obviously 
is busy with other things. And a few Marian Koshland just 
definitely said she wasn't interested. She evidently didn't 
have that sort of need to meet with other women faculty members. 
She dropped immediately. 

Riess: Elizabeth Scott's group meets in the club? 

Diamond: Right. In the board room. There again there's a nucleus of 
women. Margaret Wilkerson, etcetera. I try to make that when 
I can because I like to hear what other women are doing profes 
sionally. I find that exceedingly nice. 

3) Faculty Club Funding, Memberships, Parties 

Riess: Exceedingly interesting, too, to me. So much of the recorded 
history of the club is on money matters. 

Diamond: It sort of has to be, in a way, to keep the club going. That's 
what presses us. I didn't there to worry about how many pats 
of butter to order, but that's the impression I came away with, 
that these were important issues. Should we serve pats of butter, 
or chunks which was cheaper. 


Riess: Do they discuss the pats of butter on the men's club board? 
Diamond : They let the manager do that . 

The manager was always at our meetings [at the Women's 
Faculty Club]. What I come away with, remembering, were the 
little issues we dealt with, but what I liked most about being 
on that board was that I met Aletha Titmus, I met Bobbie Barton, 
I met Margaret Thal-Larsen. I really loved working with these 
groups of intelligent women. 

Riess: Do women join the men's club for reasons that have to do with 
the power of the men on campus? 

Diamond: I have no idea, other than that they enjoy men's company on a 

social basis. We're having more social activities; we're having 
dances now, and dinners. A big barbeque at the beginning of 
the year for faculty and their families, held out on the lawn. 
It's a lovely social aspect that the [men's] club didn't have 

Riess: Has the Women's Faculty Club over the years taken political stands 
as a board on issues on campus? 

Diamond: No, I don't believe so. 
Riess: Has the men's? 

Diamond: No. Again, as I look at our job, it's raising money, improving 
the club physically and socially. We spend most of our time 
with those issues, and our management. And the management will 
bring the problems of salaries and so forth, and so we discuss 
all of this. 

I think we join the faculty clubs because it gives us a 
chance to deal with all the people throughout the campus on a 
more relaxed basis. And though we spend our time talking about 
funding and things like this just as we write grants when we 
are in the departments it's a different level at which you 
approach it, and with a different emphasis. It's a much more 
relaxed emphasis. And it's fun to be active [on the board]; 
you really get to know the people that way. You take our board 
we've got a former dean of the Business School, a vice chancellor 
of finance, the former dean of the School of Social Welfare. 
These are very substantive directive fine human beings, and to 
sit there and argue about various issues of the club is pure 

Riess: People like Josephine Smith on the Women's Faculty Club board. 


Diamond: Yes, I wouldn't have met her otherwise, and I loved her clear, 

sharp twinkling eyes as she would work. I can see her spreading 
everything out and following it, the black line versus the red 
line, you know, how we're moving along. 

Riess: Does the composition of the board of the Women's Faculty Club 
reflect the membership? 

Diamond: I think it does. Mary Lou Norrie was on the board, and she was 
faculty. So there were about five of us, and about five that 
weren' t . 

Riess: But considering the fact that the great number of members are 
from the nonacademic side? 

Diamond: Then obviously they went overboard to try to get more faculty 

to make it look equal on the board as far as campus representation 
was concerned. 

Riess: The Men's Faculty Club is also for non-academics? 

Diamond: Yes, let me just think on the board. Yes, there are a few there 
who are not academicians. But I think mention is made of this, 
that they don't feel there is enough of a meshing between adminis 
tration and faculty. We do have membership cocktail parties 
where everybody is invited, but it's true that when I go it seems 
to me that there are more administrative than faculty members 
there. I don't know offhand the ratio for membership in the 
men's club. 

We've also had associate memberships, for people who work 
for the Bancroft Library or for the Art Museum or for the Lawrence 
Hall of Science, who dedicate their efforts for the university, 
to get them associate memberships. We wrote to their. presidents 
to ask them to submit names to us of people that we could then 
invite to increase our membership. And we've had a membership 
drive to bring j.n people in the community we don't want it to 
be opened to the community, but leaders in the community so 
the Chamber of Commerce has sent us a list of outstanding people. 
Our membership drive tried to bring those people in, and we had 
a luncheon for them. This was my function. So I sat next to 
the president of the Bank of America [laughing] or wherever, 
from the city, and they were very pleased to be brought in, to 
know that they could bring their guests to the Men's Faculty 
Club for lunch. 

What we used to do in the women's club for associate members, 
we would just tap outstanding women in the community, one or 
two, but we never had a real drive to bring in outstanding women. 


Riess: This all reflects the need to have more dues coming in? 

Diamond: Right. And interests, and to make the club more alive, more 
meaningful to the university and the community. 

When it comes to the Christmas party, this is when you see 
everybody. Last year we had three hundred at the Christmas party, 
and had to turn away that many. So this year we're going to 
have two nights of the Christmas party. I fought hard for that. 
Our board said, "No, only one night, because it was the Christmas 
party," and I said, "Let's ask the membership." So we sent it 
out to the membership and it turned out that about three hundred 
to fifteen wanted two nights so that everybody could come. So 
I feel very good. We had a little running feud on that one! 

Riess: Why is it such a wonderful party? 

Diamond: Because it's the one time of year when everybody really gets 
together, sings together, relaxes together, and it starts the 
whole Christmas spirit. [phone interruption] 

The Monks sing faculty and administration dressed in robes, 
men with gorgeous voices who volunteer. It's become a tradition. 
They walk among the tables singing their carols, which is always 
a delight. 

Then we have a Christmas skit, and this is written by one 
of the deans of the Law School, Jim Hill. Sometimes Professor 
[James] Cahill will write it. They rotate around, those who 
like to write skits. And over the years six of us have been 
in it; even though some of us cannot sing at all, we still 
participate. The skit deals with an issue that's current and 
becomes a very good musical. 

Then we all sing Christmas carols at the end. It's just 
the one time that the faculty gets together in a relaxed fashion 
on this whole campus f or the whole year! [phone interruption] 

Riess: And the Women's Faculty Club is invited? 
Diamond: [going to the phone] They're invited, yes. 

4) The Question of Where to Have Lunch 

Riess: Is there any way in which belonging to the Women's Faculty Club 
has actually advanced your career here at the university? 


Diamond: I've never looked on it that way. I'm not one who's out for 
advancement. I work because I love to teach and I love to do 
my research and I like to work with people. I only work to 
advance myself if I feel it's unfair. And there have been 
occasionally times when it's been unfair, and then I've gone 
in fighting. But no, I went there because I want to interact 
with people and see what they're thinking, find out what the 
other women's problems are and what the benefits are, both 
academic and social. I like to go to their luncheons where you 
learn about their fields. I like to hear about what Elizabeth 
Scott's doing, or what Hanna Pitkin in political science is doing. 
I admire Hanna, and I see her from afar, and I read about her 
and I want to go and listen to her. I go for that reason. 

Riess: I must say it sounds like that wasn't just automatically a part 
of the club, that it took some pushing, some structure. 

Diamond: I think so, very definitely. I didn't just call up women and 
have lunch with them up there, because I like the group effort 
and the interaction, it's a little more dynamic in some ways 
restrictive, but I think we all feel good when we leave. And 
we use the women's club for it. 

Riess: And you think the clubs should be separate? 

Diamond: Yes. I like having the two, and I like some days, if I'm taking 
students, to be able to say, "Where do you want to go? Men's 
or women's club?" And I tell them the virtues of each and they 
can choose, because every week I take students to lunch. 

Riess: Pretend I 'm a student. What are the virtues of each? 

Diamond: What are the virtues of each? Well, you have better salads at 
the women's club, and I like eating outside. And they treat 
you in a more feminine fashion; it's more a ladies club. The 
men's club is rugged and you feel the history, the dynamics of 
intellectualism of these mer come through the walls. This dark, 
uncarpeted in some areas, place. You feel tradition more in 
the men's. 

The women's is more airy, lighter, and beautiful. Its 
antiques are lovely. I love to show people the quality. I feel 
elevated in spirit by going into the women's club and I don't 
necessarily feel elevated going into the men's. I feel more 
traditional and more academic. 

Riess: And if you were taking a visitor from Harvard? 


Diamond ; 


Diamond ; 

Diamond : 


Again I'd ask them, and see what they would say. I always give 
them a choice. I like sort of going into the men's for lunch 
and telling them that women were not allowed in the Great Hall. 
"Let's go eat in the Great Hall, because we weren't allowed in 
here previously." And I like telling them how when I first went 
in that club the men used to say, "What are you doing here?!" 
And now that I'm vice president of their club, it's a good feeling. 
I feel I've come a long way in acceptance or maybe it's just 
age. Whatever it is, I feel comfortable in both clubs. 

So you would say that one of the effective aspects of the merger 
talk was to bring the two clubs together. 

To discuss whether they should really exist. There are those 
who feel they should [merge] , for food reasons or whatever, for 
economic reasons. But I still think it's kind of fun sometimes 
to just feel like you're going to eat at a women's club. They 
are mixed now, but you still have that background feeling that 
this is for women. 

When were women first allowed in the Great Hall? 

In that merger period. And you still don't sit at the two round 
tables at the entrance. Those are sacrosanct, there's no doubt 
about it. I haven't been invited to sit there yet. One of these 
days I'll ask Michael Goodman if he will let me sit at the head 
round table where "The Professors" sit. 

Michael Goodman is a very long-standing member, 

Are there young 

Diamond: Who sit at that table? 

Riess: In general, at the men's club? 

Diamond: They don't have has many junior members as they would like. This 
is something we'd like to include. But again, you're not going 
to get the assistant professors joining the men's club, except 
for those who want to promote their careers or think they might 
by that route. Most of them are staying home in their departments 
and working very hard to be sure they becomes members of the 
faculty and get a tenured position. So I think that's the 
rationale for why we don't have so many junior members. Once 
they know they're going to be here a while, then they begin to 
look outside their departments for other associations. I think 
it's a very reasonable approach. 


5) Administrative Interests 

Diamond: I wouldn't spend that much time as a junior faculty I did though, 
however. It's interesting. I'm contradicting myself. Because 
I also wanted to see other women. But I'm a social character. 
Promoting my career isn't that important. 

Riess: You were junior faculty then? 

Diamond: I was junior faculty when I became a dean, and they said, "You 

have to realize that this doesn't mean you're going to be permanent 
faculty, just because you've come into the dean's office." I 
started as assistant dean in the College of Letters and Sciences 
and worked up to associate dean from about 1967 to 1972. In 
fact my time then was very much involved with administration 
and I dropped my association with the Women's Faculty Club at 
that time; I got off the board. 

It's interesting, most people wouldn't want to be a dean, 
but I wanted to really work in advising. I disliked our negative 
attitudes towards advising in this university. I thought I could 
get in there and make advising an important part of a faculty 
career. And eventually advising is on the faculty biographical 
form now, how much time you spend with research, teaching, and 
how much time you spend advising. So I think by making a little 
noise we brought it along; it served a purpose. You spend an 
awful lot of time talking to students when you're not out teaching. 
But you're helping them. 

I feel good in that respect, that I'm not saying all 
professors spend a lot of time with it, but at least they have 
to designate how much time they do spend. And those who do spend 
a lot, now will get more credit. Not as much as for teaching 
and research, but at least some acknowledgment that you do spend 
time trying to help students find their way around this big 

Riess: Are committee meetings of faculty ordinarily held at the clubs? 

Diamond: They frequently meet at The Faculty Club for lunch. It depends 
on the committee, and how long a period you have to work. Short 
committees ^ery definitely have met at the men's, primarily, 
because they have more rooms available. They're going to open 
up their whole recreation room now, and it will no longer be 
a recreation room, it will be a committee room. I fought that 
one too. [laughter] I lost there. 


Riess: You sound like a good fighter. 

Diamond: Well, what's the purpose of having the brain to give you new 
ideas, if you don't try to use them? 

Transcriber: Suzanne Riess 
Final Typist: Catherine Winter 




1) The Academic and the Non-Academic Sides of the Club 180 

2) The Board of Directors of the Building Committee, 1954-1967, 

and the Building Crisis 183 

3) The Board of Directors of the Association, 1965-1967, and the 

Fundraising Projects 189 

4) Professional Advancement 191 

5) Issues of "Aging Residents" and Hiring Managers 195 

6) The Ad Hoc Committee and the Joint Operations Committee, and 

the Haas Gift 196 

7) The Club Operates in the Black, 1977 201 

Mary Ann Johnson, Assistant University 
Material Manager, Office of the Vice- 
President of Business and Finance, 1977 


Mary Ann Johnson 

June 16, 1982 

Interviewed in the Library of the Women's Faculty Club 

1) The Academic and the Non-Academic Sides of the Club 

Riess: A little bit about you how long have you been on this campus? 

Johnson: You mean my professional background? Well, I started in the 

purchasing department in January of 1938, and I stayed in that 
department (it had some changes of names through the years) . 
I retired in 1977 as the assistant university materiel manager. 

I was always involved with all the campuses, not just Berkeley. 
First we called them statewide, then university-wide and then 
Office of the President. Finally they were calling it systemwide 
administration and it was still that when I retired in August 
of 1977. 

Riess: Are you a graduate of the university? 

Johnson: Yes, I graduated in 1937 in economics and then I went to business 
college. 1 came back in January of 1938 as a clerk in the 
purchasing department. Women, even though they had the education, 
weren't being given the jobs that men with comparable education 
were given. However, this was also still in the Depression days, 
so I felt I was quite lucky to have a job. It was, through the 
years, a very enjoyable experience. I love the place. 

Riess: That's a good introduction. 

Were you aware at the time, 1938, of the Women's Faculty 

Johnson: Well, not in the beginning. I did join in 1947, and that was 

on the invitation of Vera May Twist, who was the administrative 
assistant in the School of Business Administration, and a long 
time member of the club. 

Riess: As a female employee on campus, what were your meeting places 
with other women? 


Johnson: Well, mainly the restaurants down on the avenue. When I came, 
Sproul Hall hadn't been built, the Student Union hadn't been 
built, and that block between Bancroft and Sather Gate was all 
businesses and restaurants. And one of the favorite restaurants 
and meeting places was the Black Sheep, which later moved over 
onto Bancroft Way. Another was The Varsity on the corner of 
Bancroft and Telegraph. 

Riess: The Black Sheep must have been packed, because everybody says 
it was the best. 

Johnson: Oh yes, she had marvelous food. So that was the main gathering 
place at that time. There really wasn't a restaurant on the 
campus that I can remember. 

Riess: Were there social hierarchies among the groups of women that 
got together for lunch? 

Johnson: Oh, I don't think so, not that I was really aware of. It would 
be mainly the people who were working first in California Hall, 
which is where I started, and then in Sproul Hall. The women 
in the academic departments, I think, according to the building 
they were working in, that's where they found their friends. 
While I knew a number of people through telephone contacts, they 
were just a voice to me. So there really wasn't a lot of mixing. 
I had a few friends up at the rad lab who would come down to 
the Black Sheep and we would have lunch together. But I didn't 
have access to the Women's Faculty Club until 1947, when I became 
a member. 

Emily Huntington was the secretary at that time and she's 
the one who signed my membership card, which I looked at just 
recently. Emily just passed away. 

Riess: She was in economics also. 

Johnson: Yes, although I hadn't had her as a professor when I was a student. 

Riess: Was that the usual experience, that one was invited to be a member 
of the club rather than initiating it on your own? 

Johnson: At that time, yes. They had some strict criteria as far as the 
staff people who were eligible to become members. You had to 
be a certain level I think administrative assistant at that 
time. Since then they have lowered that to what used to be called 
principal clerk or secretary; I'm not sure what the titles are 


Riess: I saw, just this morning, that in the early '60s the Board of 

Directors was not only named, but titled. "So and so, Placement 
Officer III," and I thought that was interesting. 

Johnson: Yes, that is. If I was aware of it, I've forgotten it. 

Riess: I should think there would be an effort, once people were in 
the club, to consider everyone to be equal. 

Johnson: Uh, no. There was a little difference between the women who 

were academic people and the non-academic people. And I think 
that I was one of the first presidents who was not an academic 

Riess: The "little difference" was perceived by whom? 

Johnson: Well, I think by the academic people. Catherine Quire was 

president at one time [beginning, 1950s], and she had been in 
the Dean of Students Office. I think she was an assistant 
professor or associate professor, so she did have academic 
standing. I can remember her saying when she was president, 
while she came out of the Dean of Students Office (which was 
considered non-academic), she had an academic appointment, so 
that made a little difference to her. 

I can't say definitely that there were two classes of 
members, but generally it was the academic women who were the 
leaders. And originally, from what I find in the files, the 
membership was limited to academic women, but it was very soon 
after that that they opened it up, within a year. They just 
didn't have that number to draw on. 

Riess: If you were a non-academic and the president of the board, you 
might have a hard time asking a full professor to be in charge 
of, say, the hospitality committee. 

Johnson: Well, I really wasn't aware of that and had no problem getting 
the cooperation of all the directors on my board. 

Riess: There weren't things that were considered to be menial? 

Johnson: No, I don't think so, not in that respect. But there was just 
the feeling that the president of the club should come from the 
academic side. I don't know, though, about Lucy Ward Stebbins, 
who was the president for so many years. She was the founder 
of the club; she was the one who originally took the initiative 
to get the women together. 

Riess: She was a professor of economics. 


Johnson: Was she also a professor? I just knew her as dean of women when 
I was on the campus and then later. She was still living when 
I joined the club, but she had given up the presidency. But 
she was president for, oh, twenty-five years I would say, and 
she really ran the club . Although in looking through the files 
I see that there were others Sarah Davis was another great 
prominent name, and Edith Coulter. I meant to get at those club 
files and look more stuff up, but I didn't get to it. 

I thought I was making headway in that vault, and all of 
a sudden Katherine Williams called me and said they've pulled 
out a whole bunch of boxes from a back room and would I come 
in and help her go through them. So we've been working on the 
stuff that was just piled up there in that little room off the 
office. And we still haven't gotten through all of that. Now 
the things that occurred in the '20s I've put aside to be sure 
that it isn't something historically important but all the chits 
that were signed in the '40s and the payrolls 

Riess: You're hanging onto all of that? 

Johnson: No, we're tossing it away. [laughing] Nobody's ever going to 
look at that and I can't see that it would have any historical 

Riess: Those summary histories in the vault that were done by Sarah 
Davis and then by Clarus Faubion are just excellent. When I 
go to the original material, I see the summaries have summarized 
it very, very adequately. 

Johnson: I've tried to save the announcement of each annual meeting. I 
think that would be of importance to have, and of course the 
minutes are all there bound. And a copy of the invitation for 
each one of the special events and that's frustrating because 
sometimes it has the day and the month, but not the year! 

2) The Board of Directors of the Building Committee, 1954-1967, 
and the Building Crisis 

Riess: So, in 1947 you say you became a member. 

Johnson: I served on, oh, I think the library committee, and the hospitality 
committee. But it was in 1954 that I was elected to the Board 
of Directors for The Building Committee of the Women's Faculty 
Club, Inc. I don't know if you know the distinction. 


Riess: I know a little about the distinction historically, and I know 
that that distinction ended in 1966. Let me just back up to 
the extent of asking whether people just joined the club and 
didn't take any committee or board role. 

Johnson: Oh, yes, there were many, many members who all they wanted to 
do was to have a place to come and eat and meet their friends 
and come to the evening functions. They really didn't want to 
be burdened with working on a committee or on the board. 

Riess: And so why did you want to? Can you say? 

Johnson: Well, I don't know that I particularly wanted to [laughter], 
but Vera Christie was on the nominating committee that year. 
She was quite active in the club and had been a member for many 
years. I can remember her calling me and asking me if I would 
stand for election to the board, and I didn't even know what 
the Building Committee was at that time. I was flattered and 
accepted, not knowing what I was getting into. 

Edith Coulter was treasurer of the Building Committee and 
the watchdog of the finances. "The Building Committee of the 
Women's Faculty Club, Incorporated," was the corporation and 
it was the organization that sold the bonds to raise the money 
to build the building. It owned the building. The Women's 
Faculty Club, which was an association, paid rent to the Building 
Committee, ran the dining room, and rented the rooms and so forth. 

The Building Committee was responsible for the building 
structure. When we had to put a new roof on, it was the Building 
Committee who had to pay for it. It's only source of funds was 
the rent that the Women's Faculty Club paid, and there were some 
pretty bad times when the Women's Faculty Club didn't have enough 
money to pay the rent. 

Riess: You mean bad times over all the years? 

Johnson: Over all the years. Going through the records I can see way 

back in the beginning it was just always a struggle to get enough 
money to keep going. And when you think of what those women 
did to get this building built. They couldn't borrow from the 
bank, because they didn't own the land on which the building 
was going to be built. It's the Regent's land. So that was 
why they formed this Building Committee which sold the bonds 
that raised the money to build the building. I think they were 
twenty-five year bonds. The bonds were paid off sometime in 
the late '40s, shortly after I became a member, and they had 
a big celebration of burning the mortgage. 


Johnson: But all of the money that they could get together went to paying 
off those bonds. And, therefore, the upkeep of the building 
suffered. Almost the first thing we did after the bonds were 
paid off was to replace all the mattresses which had been on 
the beds for twenty-five years. 

Riess: It sounds like a possibly very antagonistic situation with the 
two boards of directors. 

Johnson: I don't think so, because it was common membership. If you were 
a member of the Women's Faculty Club, you were automatically 
a member of the Building Committee of the Women's Faculty Club. 
The two organizations had different boards of directors, but 
they were drawn from the same membership. 

Riess: You're defining the Building Committee as the entire body. 

Johnson: No, well, I would say the Board of Directors of the Building 
Committee. And then, in the early times, specifically, Edith 
Coulter, who was the treasurer. 

But there was no way, when the Women's Faculty Club did 
not have enough money to pay the rent, there was nothing that 
that Board of Directors of the Building Committee could do to 
force them to pay the rent [chuckles]. The money just wasn't 
there. There would be several months when the rent would be 
waived. But they managed to pay off those bonds and have this 
house clear. 

Then, in 1957, the kitchen was in bad shape, but we got 
a gift from the Regents of $30,000 to do over the kitchen. 

Riess: That was an unsolicited gift? 

Johnson: Well, no, we wrote to President Sproul and told him we were in 

bad trouble. What we wanted in the beginning, what we were asking 
for, was a loan, but the Regents gave us the money. 

And when we finished doing the kitchen over, we had two 
or three thousand dollars left that we hadn't spent. So we 
wanted to give it back, and Sproul told us, "No, you keep it 
and use it some other wav " 

Riess: [chuckling] Isn't that interesting that the women would want 
to give it back. 

Johnson: We were so conscientious! Now, the men got a big loan from the 
Regents at one time, but they've had quite a struggle and I 
understand that all they've been able to do is pay the interest 
on that loan; they have never paid anything back on the principle. 


Johnson: In later years, the Regents did adopt a policy of lending money 
to the various clubs. When the university was growing and the 
other campuses were being developed and they were trying to start 
up faculty clubs on each campus, the Regents did help. Their 
policy, if I remember correctly, was they would lend one-third 
and would give one-third and the organization itself would have 
to raise one-third. 

Sometime during the period I was on the board for the 
Building Committee, we had a struggle with termites. They were 
in the attic and had come from Senior Men's Hall. They were 
unusual termites [laughter]; they were the flying kind and that's 
how they got in the attic instead of the basement. But because 
they had come from Senior Men's Hall, the Berkeley campus paid 
for part of the cost to exterminate them. 

Riess: Once the mortgage was burned, why did the corporation continue? 

Johnson: It was brought up at that time, as I remember, and it was Barbara 
Armstrong's recommendation that the organization not be changed, 
that they continue to have the corporation represented by the 
Building Committee and the association represented by the Women's 
Faculty Club. I don't know the reason for that recommendation 
but they went along with that. 

Then in 1965 I became president and we started having a 
fund-raising campaign. 

Riess: Well, let's set the scene for your presidency. Gertrude Mitchell 

had been the president and the records refer to those years, 

the early '60s, as "years of crisis." Were you still on the 
board of directors of the corporation? 

Johnson: No. I think I left that probably in 1962. 
Riess: What was the crisis then? 

Johnson: The building was almost falling apart. It needed to be painted 
inside and out. The rooms were badly run-down. Major plumbing 
repairs were needed. But there just wasn't the money. The dining 
room kept running a deficit and the rooms were in such bad shape 
that we really couldn't charge very much rental per month. 

And it was a different kind of living arrangement. Most 
of the women who were living here had been here for many, many 
years. It was getting the reputation for being an old ladies 
home. So the rooms that we did have available for rental were 
not very attractive from many standpoints. We just weren't 
generating the money to be able to do the things that needed 
to be done. 


Johnson: Soon after I became president we decided to have a fund-raising 

campaign and there were many things that we did. The first thing 
that we did was to raise $12,000 to redo the dining room. The 
dining room is now pretty much the same shape as when we redid 
it back in 1966 or '67. 

Riess: The dining room was renovated in the period from January to March 
in 1967. 

Johnson: And you see then, that's when we began to have to work so closely 
with the Building Committee. We found that actually the two 
boards were meeting jointly. It became very obvious: "Why 
do we have these two organizations?" 

The other thing that became a concern, the Building Committee 
being a corporation, the directors were protected more or less 
from any lawsuit that might be brought if somebody fell, or was 
otherwise injured. At that time that was becoming a great concern 
because we were hearing about all these lawsuits that were being 
brought by people who had been injured in something or other. 
Well, the directors for the Building Committee were protected 
because it was a corporation, but the directors and the members 
of the Women's Faculty Club didn't have that kind of protection, 
because they were not a corporation. So that was another big 
reason why we decided that the time had come to have just one 

Doras Briggs, who was president of the Building Committee 
at that time, and myself as president of the Women's Faculty 
Club, and Bobbie Barton, who was on the board but was also our 
legal advisor, worked to change the articles of incorporation 
and the bylaws to put the two organizations together. It had 
to be voted on by all the members, and I think that was done 
at the annual meeting in 1967. Then we became one organization. 
We put the two boards together. Originally there were five on 
one board and six on the other board and we put them together 
and had eleven members on one board. 

Riess: Was Barbara Armstrong still around? 

Johnson: No, she wasn't too active. I think she was still living at that 
point, but she had retired. Aletha Titmus, who was associate 
counsel in cne General Counsel's Office, was also on our board 
and she, too, contributed [her expertise]. Aletha later became 
chairman of the Heyns committee. 

Riess: [laughter] You're going too fast; I'm going to have to slow 

you down. The years under Gertrude Mitchell's presidency, was 
there any real facing up to problems, or would you say those 
were stagnant times and that when you came in there was a sense 
of purpose? 


Johnson: They weren't stagnant, but people just didn't have the push to 

do something. I think I was very fortunate when I became president 
that there were so many women serving on the board who were such 
vital people. They had struggled during Gertrude Mitchell's 
presidency, recognizing the problem, but not really coming to 
grips with it to try to do anything about it. 

We did a lot of things, but in the long run we weren't able 
to get enough money to do the things that needed to be done with 
the building. We did raise the $12,000 to redo the dining room, 
but we had a program we wanted to raise something like $60,000 
so we could get another $120,000, part gift and part loan from 
the Regents, so we could do the whole building over. 

Riess: You had had an estimate from somebody as to the needs and costs? 

Johnson: Ken Cardwell was the architect that we had for redoing the dining 
room. We had some advice from Ken Cardwell as to what should 
be done, with an estimate of about how much it would cost. 

Riess: Did you go to the Regents in search of that money? 
Johnson: Not at that time. We needed to first raise $60,000. 
Riess: Was that considered? 

Johnson: Well, now, yes. We did write a letter to Chancellor Heyns at 
that time about the needs for the Women's Faculty Club. 

Riess: Before 1966 a committee from the board had gone to the chancellor 
to ask for a dining room subsidy, and this had led to the appoint 
ment of the ad hoc committee. So that must have been the time 
when Heyns suddenly became aware 

Johnson: Of the problems. Well, our letter was referred by Chancellor 
Heyns to President Kerr. And I can remember the letter came 
back to us with a little note from President Kerr which said, 
"What do the ladies want?" [laughter] 

We thought we had been quite specific that we wanted some 
help to do this building over. But he apparently didn't think 
we were specific enough and we all had a chuckle over that 
"What do the ladies want?" 

Riess: Do you think that in fact you hadn't come right out and said 
you wanted x-amount of money? 


Johnson: I think that was it. We said our building was in bad shape 

and we needed to have all these changes made. But we weren't 
specific in saying, "Please give us some money to do this." 

And then I think after that was when Chancellor Heyns 
appointed this committee of the two representatives from the 
two clubs. Now do you want me to get into that at this point? 

3) The Board of Directors of the Association, 1965-1967, 
and the Fundraising Projects 

Riess: I want to get into that, but not yet. As far as fund raising 

goes, first of all you said that you had a marvelous board. On 
your board were Betty Neely and Clarus Faubion and Marion Diamond 
and somebody "Heiss." 

Johnson: Ann Heiss, Clara Wightman, Adeline Larson, Aletha litmus. And 
Doras Briggs at that time attended because she was president 
of the Building Committee. The composition of the board changed 
during the two years. Bobbie Barton was on the Building Committee 
board too at that time. 

Riess: Did you have anything to do with the strength of your board? 

As a president, I know that you're chosen from among the directors, 

Johnson: .After the annual meeting, the Board of Directors have an organi 
zation meeting, and that's when they elect their officers. So 
it was in April of 1965, after the annual meeting, that I was 
elected president. Clara Wightman was elected vice-president. 

As far as determining the officers or the members of the 
board, I wouldn't have much to do with that. The terms are 
staggered, so there were still some members on the board who 
had been on there the previous year . Those who were nominated 
at the same time I was nominated had been chosen by the nominating 
committee, so I had really nothing to do with the selection of 
the women who were serving on the board when I did. That's why 
I said I was so very lucky. There was just this very dynamic 
group of women who had a lot of good ideas and the energy and 
enthusiasm to carry it out. 

Riess: Fund raising does take a particular kind of willingness to really 
work. How did you actually raise that $12,000? 


Johnson: I thought about a number of the things that we had. We had an 

art show here in the club that Aletha litmus handled. (Her name 
now is Aletha litmus Owens, and presently she is general counsel 
for the Hastings School of Law. At that time she was an associate 
counsel in the General Counsel's Office down in University Hall.) 
She headed the art show, which was a very elegant affair, here 
in the club. Some of the members contributed to the exhibition. 

Riess: From their personal collections? 

Johnson: Uh huh. And some of the things that we had were for sale, and 
there were a number of people who bought things. 

Riess: Was this new, to open the club up in this way to the public? 

Johnson: Yes, it was. We had a very large crowd who came. 

Riess: People just plain curious about the club? 

Johnson: 1 think it was mostly the campus community and our friends. 

We had a dinner party in San Francisco. We went to one 
of the ACT plays, and beforehand there was a wine and cheese 
tasting party across the street in some building there. It was 
a Sunday afternoon. Katherine McGrail was the chairman of that 
particular event. Katherine McGrail was the coordinator of 
University Telecommunications. 

One very fine event was Mme. Pandit, who spoke down in 
Pauley Ballroom, and Jane Welcome was the chairman of that event. 
Now, she wasn't on the board, but she was one of the members 
that we got to take over the event. And that drew a very large 
crowd. Elinor Heller, who was a regent at the time, introduced 
her [Mme. Pandit], and then we had a reception here after the 

Riess: Was Mme. Pandit staying at the club? 

Johnson: She stayed at the club one or two nights at that point. But 

no, I don't know how Jane arranged for this. She was visiting 
in the country and we sponsored the event. 

Riess: Tickets were sold. 

Johnson: Yes. And that was again to the general public, mainly the campus 
community. We had a very large crowd. 

Riess: So you're drawing basically upon the campus community in all 
the events. 


Johnson : Yes . 

Riess: Did this open up the club in a way that resulted in a greater 
membership for the club do you think? 

Johnson: Well, there was a small increase in membership. But for many, 

many years it stayed pretty level at about three hundred members. 
We'd get a number of new members, but then people would leave 
or they'd die and it just seemed to average out. So the large 
increase in membership hasn't come until just very recently. 

And we had a cruise on the bay. That was chaired by Betty 
Strehl. (She is now Betty Kerley, the wife of vice-chancellor 
[Robert] Kerley.) She was responsible for the cruise on the 
bay. That was an evening affair. It was not a supper or a dinner 
of any kind; we just had this cruise on the bay. And that 
brought out a good crowd and was a very interesting evening. 

Riess: Were there members of the club, while this was all going on, 
who thought that this was all very inappropriate? 

Johnson: No, I don't believe so. We began to generate this enthusiasm 

and people participated. I mean at least they came to the events, 
supported the event. 

Riess: Quite a different feeling in the club I should think. 
Johnson: It was, it was. It was a period when it was very exciting. 

We had a reception this was at an annual dinner for the 
women regents, who at that time were Elinor Heller and Catherine 
Hearst and Dorothy Chandler. Dorothy Chandler wasn't able to 
attend, but we had Mrs. Hearst and Mrs. Heller and we had a very 
large crowd for that. That was limited to members. 

Riess: The members would pay? 

Johnson: Oh, yes, there was a charge for the annual dinner, always. 

4) Professional Advancement 

Riess: I'd like to know if there were any very conscious efforts to 
use the club for other women's organization. 

Johnson: The Faculty Wives used it for their monthly teas. A little later 
the Center for Continuing Education of Women used the clubhouse, 
had their headquarters here for a while. 


Riess: But if there were professional associations of women meeting, 
say, on the Berkeley campus in the summer, would there be an 
immediate linkup with the club? 

Johnson: Not necessarily. We would have a number of visiting women 

scholars who would stay here during the summertime, or maybe 
come for six months. But I don't remember that there were any 
specific affairs because there was something going on for women 
on the campus. You know, I just don't think that women were 
involved in that way at that time. 

Riess: It's interesting that over the years, the Committee for the 

Professional Advancement of Women, which was a standing committee, 
I think, at the club since it began, met and didn't generate 
much of a report. But they did, in the late '50s and '60s. There 
must have been a very active committee person at that point. 

Johnson: Well, that could I mention one more thing about our fund raising 
events, because this was a big event too? That was the rummage 
sale that Doras Briggs was the chair for, and this was down in 
one of the university's parking lots. We had a Saturday and 
Sunday and we made quite a bit of money off of that, but that 
was a lot of hard work, getting the tables set up and handling 
it. So that was about the last of the special events that I 
noted in particular. 

And then going back to your professional development. The 
club did have through the years a standing committee called the 
Professional Development Committee. I can remember at the annual 
meeting there was always a report from the Professional Development 
Committee, and their report would consist of statistics and the 
percentage of women faculty members to the whole faculty and 
they would always go back to when the club was founded, in 1919 
that percentage was dropping, you see, over the years. 

I think, as I remember, originally 20 percent of the faculty 
was female, and that percentage just kept falling. There was 

great concern about this, but nobody could seem to do anything. 

They were also concerned as to the kind of faculty committees 

on which the women were asked to serve. They were never asked 
to serve on the powerful committees. 

It was probably around 1967, '68, when this group of faculty 
women started meeting here in the club at noontime. That was 
Susan Ervin-Tripp, Laura Nader, Elizabeth Scott, Herma Kay and 
Babette Barton. They were at that time considering only advance 
ment of the women in the academic area, but they soon expanded 
their studies to staff women also on the campus. And this 
coincided with the start of the women's rights movement. 


Riess: This group of women, were they already members of the club? 

Johnson: They were already members of the club. 

Riess: And were they, in fact, the Professional Development Committee? 

Johnson: I don't think so. I think this was an independent group that 

formed, because you had these beginnings of concern about women 
not being treated the same as men. And it had a great deal to 
do with the eventual effort on the part of the university 
authorities to try to promote women, both in the academic area 
and in the staff area. 

Riess: Well, it certainly seems to be the stuff of which, you would 
think, many a lunchtime conversation would be composed around 

Johnson: They met regularly for lunch and they got a lot of publicity 
in the Daily Cal and began to put on pressure. 

I think in my own case personally it had some bearing on 
my advancement in my own area. The university has a management 
program. They also have their classification section, which 
was under the Personnel Office you know, the layers and the 
various titles and I had progressed to the level of Coordinator 
II. Now those titles have been changed, but that was as high 
as you could go, unless you could get into the management 

I had asked on several occasions and thought I should be 
in the management program. Eventually I did get into it, but 
I'm sure that that had something to do with the pressure that 
was being brought to recognize women and promote them to higher 
staff positions. 

Riess: You were the first woman at that level? 

Johnson: I was not the first woman in the management program, no. But 

I do think when I finally went into it that all of this stirring 
up on the campus had some bearing on it. So I was always very 
grateful for what they did, even though I wasn't really personally 
involved in it. 

Riess: When you were a member of the club, and you were meeting with 

other staff women over the years since you joined, were salaries 
and women's fair share and rights and everything, were they issues 
in the late '40s, in the '50s? 


Johnson: Well no, they weren't. Women were discriminated against. 
Riess: That was a very different kind [of discrimination]. 

Johnson: The university had its classification system and supposedly it 
applied to any employee, but there were certain classifications 
that you just thought of as belonging to women, and other 
classifications were generally [belonging to men]. 

In my own area it was very difficult for a woman to become 
a buyer or a senior buyer. That was the top. I was the first 
woman to become a senior buyer. There were several men in that 
classification, but it just wasn't considered a woman's job. 
Women were secretaries and principal clerks, and it was even 
very difficult to become an administrative assistant. 

Riess: When you broke through that level, did you find the other women 
supportive and sort of cheering you on? 

Johnson: Yes, I think so. And it sort of broke some ground, because then 
later on there were other women who were promoted into that 

You know, we were pretty naive, because we didn't think 
of ourselves really as being discriminated against. That was 
just the way life was. 

Riess: Well, I think that might be part of the nature of the club, that 

it made one feel good. I 'm wondering whether it would be possible 
that this [the club] would be a place, because it was so special, 
that would give people this kind of deluded feeling that they 
had achieved something, even though it would only be membership 
a false sense of equality, for instance, with academic women, 
not that they had that much either. Here people wouldn't be 
likely to bring up thorny questions like that, because here was 
a safe harbor. 

Johnson: Yes, I think you have a point there. For women of my geneiation, 
that was the way we were raised, that there was a certain niche 
that you fitted into and you didn't "rock the boat." 

Riess: I think to make that breakthrough, it takes a committee of strong 
women or it takes a risky mo^e. 

Johnson: Oh, it does. A woman, to get ahead in her particular profession, 
had to be so much better than a man. In order to make that 
initial breakthrough. 


Riess: In the original constitution, the purpose of the club was to 

"promote mutual acquaintance and fellowship among women who are 
officers of instruction and government of the university." In 
1966, the primary purpose is "to promote and encourage educational 
and professional activities of women associated with the univer 
sity." That seems a real change in direction. 

Do you remember the rewriting of the constitution to that extent? 

Johnson: I didn't remember that specific thing, and yet, I'm not surprised 
by it because again this was the period when you were just 
beginning to get these stirrings of the women's movement. 

5) Issues of "Aging Residents" and Hiring Managers 

Riess: Another issue you dealt with as a president apparently was the 
"aging residents" issue. 

Johnson: I think I mentioned that they had been here for a long period 

of time, that the club had a reputation, more or less, of being 
an old ladies' home, because there were four people at least 
who had just lived here forever, almost from the Year One. 
[laughing] We really didn't do much about it until we got the 
money to renovate and redo the rooms. And then the policy was 
set that you could only live in the club for, oh, I don't know 
what it is now, a semester or a year. You couldn't have this 
long-term residence in the club. It is actually limited to I 
think a year's time. It could be a possibility of an extension 
for another year, but there's no real long-term residence anymore. 

Riess: As president of the board, how involved were you with the parade 
of managers? 

Johnson: Very much so. Lucille Phipps resigned during my presidency, 
and I had to interveiw for her replacement. The Berkeley 
Personnel Office helped us to find candidates. It was up to 
me to interview them and then to get the board to approve the 
woman I chose, who was a Pat [Patricia] Barnes. She was a live 
wire and contributed a great deal to all of the activities that 
we were carrying on at that time, and really did a great deal 
to revive the dining room. 

Riess: She would have had an involvement in those wine and cheese 


Johnson: Oh yes, yes, and the special dinners that were put on and the 
menus that were chosen. But she only stayed with us about a 
year. And then we had to choose another one. 

Riess: Dulcie James. 

Johnson: She didn't stay very long. 

Riess: And then the [Gaston] Abbos. 

Johnson: The Abbos, we had great expectations from them. They were from 
France, but that didn't work out well either, and they didn't 
stay too long. 

After that I was out, was really not involved, I wasn't 
on the board and I don't remember who the managers were; I was 
not involved in picking them. 

Riess: It seems a very major responsibility for the president. You 

would sort of hope that you wouldn't have to deal with that in 
your term of office. 

Johnson: Oh, when I got the news that Lucille Phipps was leaving us I 
was just devastated. What was I going to do? I was grateful 
for the help from the Personnel Office. 

6) The Ad Hoc Committee and the Joint Operations Committee, 
and the Haas Gift, 1971 

Johnson: So, we had all these fundraising activities, but we still couldn't 
raise enough money to do anything significant. We also had a 
program where we tried to get gifts, and there were a number 
of gifts made to the club, but we had to face up to the fact 
that we had set a goal that we probably couldn't attain. 

About that time was when Chancellor Heyns formed his committee.* 
Aletha Titmus was asked to be the chairman, and I was still 
president of the club and was asked to serve on it, as was Betty 
Neely, who at that point was vice-president but would later become 
president. And I cannot remember all the men. Well, the president 
of the men's club. The only one I can remember is Bob Cockrell, 
but who else do you have? 

Riess: Well, then you had Boris Bressler and Bob Erode. 

*Ad hoc committee to study The Faculty Club and the Women's Faculty 
Club, formed by invitation from Chancellor Heyns, June 1967. 


Johnson: Oh, yes. Oh, Professor Erode. It was a great committee and 

we had some really far out ideas of tearing down or moving the 
Senior Men's Hall and putting some kind of a walkway between 
the two clubs. 

Riess: Did the men come onto that committee with the same feeling that 
something needed to be done? 

Johnson: They were in a worse position than we were. I think that if 
they hadn't been they might not have been so interested in 
this. We weren't in debt; we just didn't have enough money to 
keep up. But they were in debt by a very great amount, and were 
not even able to raise the interest payments on their debt. 

Riess: Presumably Heyns had been aware of their difficulty also and 
saw this as a great opportunity. 

Johnson: To bring the two together. And at that period membership in 
faculty clubs had sort of gone out of style and people on the 
campus were eating at the Golden Bear on down the avenue some 
place. It just wasn't the thing to do to gather at a faculty 
club. Again, their membership was falling and it was mainly 
those who were getting older and had been members for a number 
of years. 

So, it really seemed the only answer was somehow or other 
to put the two clubs together and have a joint management. We 
were paying for our office and management staff; they were paying 
their office and management staff; we were both paying our kitchen 
staffs. It was such a duplication of expenses. 

Riess: It was confidential, the committee? 

Johnson: Well, not really, except we didn't report on our discussions, 
until we got to the point where if we were going to join the 
two clubs in some manner it had to be voted on by the members 
of the two clubs. 

Riess: "All possibilities open to the two groups will be examined with 
a view to meeting possible subsequent objections to proposed 
programs from whatever quarters." It sounds like when this 
committee was put together, it was with the intention of combining 
the clubs. The point suggested by Heyns was 

Johnson: Was to review the programs of the clubs with emphasis on future 
needs and development and how best the clubs could relate to 
the campus community and to each other. We were working towards 


Johnson: unity right from the beginning, and we had no idea, the three 

of us, that there would be such opposition by some of the members 
of the Women's Faculty Club. 

Riess: The other feeling I certainly got is that the communication level 
was very low. Maybe that's because there was so little interest 
in the club at all? 

Johnson: You know, you'd have an annual meeting and you'd have trouble 
getting a quorum, until finally it was changed that the quorum 
was the number of active members present, [laughing] And maybe 
you'd have twenty people! 

Riess: So this ad hoc committee didn't report to the club in that three 
year period. 

Johnson: No, not until we were ready with our final recommendation. But 
by the time we were ready for our final recommendation for the 
two clubs to vote on it, some of our thoughts had gotten out 
and you had this opposition building up. And it was a very well- 
organized opposition. 

Riess: You were no longer the president at that point. 

Johnson: No, I was no longer the president. By that time I guess it was 
Margaret Thal-Larsen. 

That initial committee was in effect until our recommendation 
was made to the full membership. They didn't really vote it 
down, but there were so many strings attached to it 

The men voted to accept it. 

Riess: How were Bressler and Erode and Cockrell to work with? 
Johnson: They were very nice to work with. 


Riess: It felt like equals struggling? 

Johnson: Yes. And I'm sure a great deal of that was due to the fact that 
Aletha Titmus was the chairman. 

Riess: Anne Low-Beer, you, Emily Huntington, and Mary Lou Norrie then 

became the official joint operations committee. The ad hoc came 
out from underground? 


Johnson: I guess that was it. And I'm trying to remember, because the 
membership for the men changed, and Hump [Orvin W. ] Campbell, 
who was the vice-chancellor for administration, he came on that 
committee and almost immediately said, "I think I can find us 
some gift funds." And he found a million dollars to be divided 
between the two clubs. The men's club got two thirds of it and 
we got one third. 

Riess: 1 received from vice-chancellor Kerley information on the terms 

of the Haas gift and how it was to be used in the Women's Education 
Center and the rehabilitation of the Women's Faculty Club, which 
I'll just include with the oral history.* 

Johnson: At one point does it tell where the funds came from, because at 
one point that was supposed to be confidential, but everybody 
got to know who it was. 

Riess: Well, it is Strauss Associates, which is the Haas family. 

Johnson: That is what really gave us the shot in the arm, when we got 
that money and could go ahead with the complete renovation of 
the club. 

Riess: How did that money actually come to you? You said that Hump 
Campbell got onto the committee. 

Johnson: And he worked with the Haas family. You know, they've been very 
generous to the university. 

Riess: Did Hump Campbell come onto the committee and see that the 

situation was really at a financial crisis point and then go 
directly to Heyns and say, "You've got to do something"? What 
do you think? 

Johnson: I think when he came onto the committee he recognized the cause 
of the crisis maybe he was put on the committee because it was 
recognized if we were going to save these two clubs, something 
had to be done. I really don't know, I just know when he came 
on the committee and he heard us talking about how were we going 
to get some money, that he made the statement, "Well, now, maybe 
I can get some gift money." 

Riess: How was it to serve on such a frustrating committee for three 

Johnson: It was frustrating. You know, we just thought we were spinning 
wheels and we were never getting any place. And then, when we 
finally came up with the recommendations, to have the opposition 
that we met with here in this club, it was very discouraging, 

*In The Bancroft Library- 


Johnson: because that opposition started before we had any idea that there 
might be another source of funds. So, you just felt the thing 
was going to go under, and wasn't that going to be too bad! 

There was some talk that the university would take over 
this building, but what would they do with it? We hoped they 
wouldn't tear it down. It was a bad time. And now I'm so happy 
to see what's been done with it. Never has the club been so 
affluent! From the very, very beginning it had been a struggle. 

Riess: The proposal that the joint operations committee of Anne Low- 
Beer, Mary Ann Johnson, Emily Huntington, and Mary Lou Norrie 
came up with was put to the vote of the membership in December 
of 1970. And this is when you got that unsettled outcome with 
a majority saying yes, but it wasn't nearly a clear majority. 
Mary Lou Norrie, in a letter to the membership, says that at 
least it's getting it out into the air and now "we will really 
begin to study this in a new way and a new level and will come 
back to you with a new proposal." 

Johnson: By that time I was beginning to withdraw from it. I was of the 
group who felt we should join with the men's club. And there 
was this other group Josephine Smith and Florence Minard in 
particular who took a very strong role in opposing it and wrote 
letters and did telephoning and so forth. And they were very 
successful in getting enough people on their side. 

As it turned out, I think it all worked out for the best. 
But if we hadn't gotten this gift, I think we'd have gone under 
unless we joined with the men. It was the gift that enabled 
us to renovate the clubhouse and to put those rental rooms in 
shape so that we could really rent them. And that's what now 
is giving us our chief source of income. So if we hadn't been 
able to do that, or hadn't joined with the men's club, I think 
we would have folded. They had this women's center here for 
a while, but for some reason that didn't work out. I don't know 
enough about that because I wasn't involved with it. And the 
dining room had closed. The people who lived here went over 
to the men's club to eat. [As of January 1972 the dining room 
had closed completely.] 

Riess: The terms of getting that money involved the joint operation? 

Johnson: It was expected with that gift that the two clubs would operate 
jointly, but then it didn't work out that way. 

Riess: The early opposition involved the question of whether all that 
money was needed for renovation. That was one of the things 
that Florence Minard tried to prove, that there had been a gross 
overestimation of how much needed to be done. [see Jan. 5, 1971 
report to members] 


Johnson: That was before we got the gift, and where it seemed we were 
going to have to try to raise that money ourselves if we were 
going to be able to continue. And they thought our estimate 
was too large. Well, as it turned out, our estimate wasn't 
anywhere near enough. Our sights were to raise $60,000, and 
get $120,000 from the Regents, as I remember. And we eventually 
ended up spending way over $300,000. 

But my recollection was that they were mainly opposed on 
two grounds: that the men hadn't wanted the women in the 
beginning, and that was why the Women's Faculty Club was started; 
and secondly, that the men had this big debt, and we were going 
to have to help them pay it off, even though the agreement we 
proposed took care of that, that that debt was going to be some 
thing separate, the women would never have to assume any part 
of it. But it was a strong talking point that they had that 
we were going to be taking on the debt that the men had , and 
we were debt-free. 

Riess: I think of Josephine Smith in particular as being concerned about 

Johnson: I think she just didn't quite trust the fact that even though 

we weren't assuming any of the debt that the men had, if we joined 
with them it was going to be inevitable that somehow or other 
we would become responsible for paying for it. 

7) The Club Operates in the Black, 1977 

Riess: We're talking about a struggle that was resolved in 1976; that's 
when Josephine Smith brought up more financial points, and that's 
when the merger was voted down. 

Johnson: But by that time we had gotten the money. The money came it 
must have come in 1971 but it took quite a while before they 
got going with the changes, and then it took a long, long time 
for the remodeling of the club. We put in the elevator and the 
rooms were changed they hadn't all had private baths and all 
these bathrooms were built in. The work took a long time. And 
then they had to have a special ramp for bringing handicapped 
people in. 

Riess: So you're saying that it took a long time before you could really 
see that the operation was in the black? 


Johnson: Before we were ready to reopen the building and start making 
money! And yes, let me see, by 1977 we were operating in the 
black and to the point where we could do some other things, like 
reupholstering the furniture and doing over the lounge in the 
library. Norma Wilier was responsible for the re-decoration 
and did a magnificent job. I became chairman of the budget and 
finance committee right after I retired, which probably was in 
the spring of '78. And by that time they had a nice cushion, 
and we were concerned then with bringing our salaries up to 
standard replacing some of the equipment in the kitchen that 
had been there since it was done over in '57. 

Riess : I have an image of the feeling of sort of a wave having washed 
over the club and then everything was all calm. 

Johnson: [chuckling] Because we didn't have to pinch pennies and we 
suddenly became an efficient operation. 

Riess: It's so much like an identity crisis, also. 

Johnson: Oh, yes, I think the image has changed, and now, you see, we 

have men members, we've got men serving on the Board of Directors, 
men living here. The same with the men's club: they opened 
it up to women and they've had women on their board. 

We've gone ahead of them because we have such a fine dining 
room. And we have a lot of men, now, coming here because our 
food is better than at the men's club. The whole atmosphere 
in that dining room has changed. It used to be you'd go in there 
and maybe there were a half a dozen people having lunch, and 
now it's packed, you have to have a reservation. Oh, the 
atmosphere has changed entirely! 

When Philip Habib was here, before Charter Day, he came 
as the Regent's Lecturer or Sather Lecturer or something the 
lecture they have before the Charter Day every year he stayed 
here for ten days. 

Riess: Oh, that is splendid. 

Johnson: Yes. And we've had any number of very prominent, international 
figures staying here. Maxine Rockwell [manager] can tell you 
that. So, the whole atmosphere has changed. 

The only thing that we don't have anymore are the evening 
affairs, because people don't want to come onto the campus in 
the evening. And there's no parking around here at night to 
speak of. It's very limited. 


Johnson: We used to have dinner every so often and we'd have a Christmas 
party with some kind of entertainment afterwards. We got pretty 
good crowds. But people just don't come out for evening affairs. 
I asked about the possibility of something in the evening, and 
this was the answer I was given. And when I think about it, 
I'm not so sure that I would come to an evening affair anymore, 
because I live out at Rossmoor now and I just don't come into 
Berkeley at night because of the security problems. 

But we are having nice affairs at noontime; the Charter 
Day luncheon has turned into a very, very nice affair; and every 
so often there's a luncheon of some special kind, rather than 
the special dinners that we used to have. The "Lunch and Learn" 
that they have takes the place of something that we used to have 
in the evening. That program, incidentally, was started by Doras 

Riess: You mentioned Susan Ervin-Tripp and the women who met and used 
the club as a forum. Can you remember other groups who used 
the club? 

Johnson: Yes. The Cowell Hospital group used to come for lunch, I don't 
know, once a week or once a month, and they would be all the 
people from Cowell Hospital. There would be a group of us that 
would come, not on a regular basis, from University Hall. We'd 
make a special point of coming up for lunch. 

There are departmental luncheons here, and they're partly 
business and partly just to have lunch together, and that happens 
frequently. Oh, there's a woman's bridge group that meets once 
a month. I think that's mainly retired members. So yes, there 
are special groups that make this their meeting place. It is 
a fine place to entertain guests. 

Riess: Well, I think that takes it through the history that you're 

most particularly identified with. I think we can stop. Thank 
you. It has been very interesting. 

Final Typist: 

John McPherson 
Catherine Winter 




1) Departmental Secretary at the University of California 204 

2) The Lunch Hour 207 

3) The Planning Committee 210 

4) A Close-up Look at the Rooms 215 

5) Recent Managers and Presidents 216 

6) Club Decor, and Club Use 218 

7) The Cross-Section of Residents 220 

Eleanor van Horn, Administrative Assistant 
Department of Political Science 

Photographed by Suzanne Eiess 3 2982 


Eleanor Van Horn 

June 17, 1982 

Interviewed in her home in Berkeley 

1) Departmental Secretary at the University of California 

Riess: I start all these interviews by asking a little bit about the 
professional history of the person I'm talking to. Are you 
a University of California graduate? 

Van Horn: No, no, I am not. I came to the university in 1925 as a, I 
won't say "shy," young secretary but at least I was in the 

Riess: Who hired you and in what department? 

Van Horn: It was Miss Vera Christie. She was a remarkable woman, a 

wonderful administrator, and she gave me two or three temporary 
secretarial assignments. The first was with old Professor 
[Willis L.] Jepson, who was a botanist, a wonderful gentleman 
who taught me much. Then I went temporarily to the chairman 
of the Geology Department in old Bacon Hall, and Dean of the 
College of Letters and Science, Professor [George D.] Louderback. 
He had a fascinating office, surrounded by specimens of rock, 
which the citizens of California kept sending to him for analysis. 

Then I think about that time, the university's building 
bond campaign had been undertaken in 1926. There was quite 
an extended building program that was under [Robert Gordon] 
Sproul, I mean Dr. Sproul; he was Mr. Sproul then. He was the 
university controller and director for the project, which ran 
about six to nine months. He needed a secretary for that bond 
campaign project, so Miss Christie sent me to him and I worked 
in California Hall in the same office with Miss [Agnes] Robb, 
who was, of course, Mr. Sproul 's right-hand Girl Friday. It 
was wonderful to see her functioning, really, in that office. 

I had a close association with Mr. Sproul in that I took 
his dictation separately for the building campaign, and learned 
much from him! I remember his saying once, "Mrs. van Horn, 
never presume!" I had assumed something or other and he asked why 


Van Horn: 


Van Horn: 


Van Horn: 

Van Horn: 

a certain action hadn't taken place. I explained my part in 
it. Then he said, in that commanding voice of his, "Never 
presume," which I've never forgotten. [chuckles] 

Was that a little bit of his wish always to be consulted about 

No, just that I had not made every effort to determine a certain 
piece of information. I had assumed something, when I should 
have investigated a little further. He was absolutely right, 
which was a very valuable lesson to learn from someone of his 
calibre. He was really marvelous. 

The controller's office was a very good office. The girls 
were conscientious, serious. 

With business school training? 
you say the secretaries had? 

What kind of training would 

I would say probably not, as I recall. I think the girls with 
whom I was associated (because my desk was there), I would say 
that they were not university-trained, as I was not. I went 
to a very good business school, the Munson School for Private 
Secretaries. Did you ever hear of it, in San Francisco? 

Munson? No. 

It was an excellent school then, I think the best there was. 
And I had had a little post-graduate work after high school 
at Polytechnic High School in San Francisco. But I had never, 
for family reasons, I had never attended the university. After 
I came here, I had the feeling, "This is where I want to be." 
And so I started auditing courses and took some University 
Extension work. 

But to go back to the controller's office this really 
is an interesting part <~f a lower level personnel development ; 
it also shows one can well believe in miracles. I've had many 
of them happen! While I was associated with Mr. Sproul (as 
I say, he was then Mr. Sproul), he had a call one day from 
Professor [David Prescott] Barrows, the Chairman of the Political 
Science Department, whom we always called General Barrows because 
he did have a military title. Are you familiar with his name 
at all? 




Van Horn: I was Professor Barrow's secretary (as well as secretary of 

the department) until he retired. But the evolution of it was 
that one day he phoned Mr. Sproul saying that his secretary 
was ill and could Mr. Sproul spare anyone to help him for a 
couple of weeks. So I was assigned to do this and went to the 
Political Science Department office, which was on the second 
floor of beautiful South Hall. And I just fell in love with 

He was a perfectly charming man, you know, very handsome. 
Did you ever see him? 

Riess: I've seen pictures of him. 

Van Horn: Oh, but never met him. Such a commanding presence, so handsome, 
wonderful voice, and with the loveliest, most gracious manners. 

I was there for two weeks, and at that time I thought, 
"Oh how I would love to be in this department." And in a few 
months time, no, in a year's time because after the building 
campaign had been concluded I was asked to continue in the 
Controller's Office in a year's time, the position in Political 
Science became vacant and it was offered to me. So, miracle 
number 1 . 

Riess: The career of a secretary in 1926 how high did you expect that 
you would be able to go in your wildest imaginings? 

Van Horn: I didn't think very much about it. I have never been "ambitious" 
or "career-minded," somehow or other. I was so completely 
nourished by being in the academic environment that it made 
no difference, if I continued to grow and develop, as I hoped 
I would. I learned so much from these minds with which I was 
constantly associated. 

Riess: Talking about women on the campus, the university must have 

taken advantage of the feeling you expressed that the atmosphere 
here was so enriching as to make the service something you would 
have done practically voluntarily. 

Van Horn: Yes. Actually, Mrs. Riess, although I did not have formal 

university training, I had an excellent education. My basic 
education was in San Francisco, though I had earlier attended 
Miss Head's School in Berkeley after French Kindergarten, and 
then the McKinley School. Then I attended Miss Hamlin's private 
school and ultimately went to Lowell High School, which was 
the academic high school in those days. I was ready for more 


Riess: I'm talking about a tradition of under-pay at the university 
that is underwritten by the fact that the university is such 
a wonderful place that people willingly accept what they can 

Van Horn: You are stating it exactly correctly at the time, because I 
was really an efficient secretary. Some of my friends said, 
"You know, you really could earn more if you were in business." 
And it made no appeal to me. I said I would prefer to sacrifice 
any additional income for being in this environment. I think 
there were plenty of girls who felt the same way. Some of my 
associates did, not all of them. 

Riess: When you came to work at the university, where did you live? 

Van Horn: I lived in Oakland at first and then moved to Berkeley. I was 
married at the time. My husband and I were divorced in 1932. 
I had originally lived in Berkeley, where I was born, but later 
in San Francisco. I had had a business background; I had worked 
for the Young Women's Christian Association Pacific Coast Head 
quarters, had a fine experience there. We had an excellent 
office manager, Miss [Elizabeth] Ristine, and I learned very 
much from her. And then I worked as secretary to the manager 
of the Methodist Book Concern, Mr. Howard M. Boys, an admirable 
man who taught me much, too. But I had several positions with 
business firms, so I had a business point of view. I had a 
variety of experiences, and this revealed different modus 
operandi, really. It let me know how impersonal and tough a 
business environment could be. 

2) The Lunch Hour 

Riess: When you first were on the campus in 1925, the Women's Faculty 
Club did huve their wonderful building. Do you remember ever 
noticing it or giving it a thought? 

Van Horn: Oh, yes, but let me make this observation. At that time, it 

was reserved to faculty. There were women faculty, of course. 

Riess: Oh, I know. But they did let some very high-level staff join. 

Van Horn: Well, I don't recall when they started doing that, but I never 
gave it a thought, except being invited to have lunch there 
occasionally with members. 


Van Horn: I was invited to become a member in 1952, I believe. At that 
time, I was not drawn in to any activity of the club. When 
I joined I would simply go for lunch, but I wasn't drawn in 
in any way. I didn't have any particular ongoing interest. 

I was so involved in the operations of the department. 
The work became increasingly heavier, but very welcome, with 
responsibility for increased staff, as well as functioning as 
the assistant to the chairman. Then much later we began to 
prepare for conversion to the quarter system scheduled for 
1966-67. I mean, I was responsible for all of the paper work 
and everything incidental for that process. I was just so 
involved that I didn't pay any attention to the functioning 
of the club. 

Riess: You would certainly have taken your hour lunch and been able 
to shed those responsibilities for an hour, wouldn't you? 

Van Horn: Oh, I would go there at times for lunch, oh yes! 

Riess: Your associates there, were there other departmental secretaries, 
and were they inclined to talk about the same kinds of burdens? 

Van Horn: Well, my campus associates, one who had very much the same feeling 
that I did was Hazel Niehaus. We have remained friends. We 
see each other occasionally and go to the club for lunch always. 
She had a wonderful experience, too. She was the university 
printer's right hand, Mr. Joseph Flynn. She was a girl without 
formal education, I mean university education. She had attended 
business college, but she grew in her position and was a wonderful 
administrative assistant who had wide contacts. Very social, 
very nice. She and I would sometimes have lunch. But we didn't 
spend the time doing post-mortems on all of our problems. We 
would share them, but we talked about other things. For instance, 
we both belonged to the St. Moritz Ice Skating Club [of Berkeley] 
and we'd talk about the politics of the ice rink. We participated 
in the program to raise money for the ice rank, Iceland; we 
bought shares in it; we would go every week to ic^. skate, and 
that would be one subject of discourse. But we didn't dwell 
on the functioning of the Women's Faculty Club or how it was 
organized or how it operated. 

Riess: I think there would be so much you could learn from the network 
of the secretaries at the university and the administrators. 
So if you wouldn't have that conversation in the club where 
you met, where would you? 


Van Horn: Well, maybe when we had a coffee break we would go over to the 
Co-op. You know, the student Co-op used to be in Stephen's 
Hall, then called the Union. They had a very nice counter, 
and we'd traipse over about 3:00 or 3:30, as we would stagger 
our time. We needed that cup of coffee for fifteen minutes 
[chuckles]! But I didn't really know any of the faculty who 
were members of the Women's Faculty Club at that time, except 
Professor Emily Huntington. 

Riess: Why did you know her particularly? 

Van Horn: Because I knew her when she was a high school student at Miss 
Hamlin's School in San Francisco. I thought about this when 
I attended the memorial service for her. She was just a bright- 
eyed, very attractive, outgoing, high-spirited young woman, 
when I was just a little boarding school girl of ten. To see 
her as she emerged from that bright-eyed girl whom I've never 
forgotten made just a lovely link. And she remembered me; she 
would always speak [to me] when we met on the campus. But I 
don't think I ever had lunch with her. 

Riess: When you were lunching there in the '50s, who were some of the, 
to your mind, more interesting, more dynamic women who would 
be at the club. 

Van Horn: Well, of course, that was after Dean [Lucy] Stebbins. Dean 
[Mary B.] Davidson, Professor Barbara Nachtrieb of the Law 
School, Martha Chickering in Social Welfare, Emily Noble in 
Economics. There was someone in Decorative Arts; I didn't know 
Professor [Hope] Gladding at that time. I'd have to think a 
little bit more about it. 

Riess: Did you go to the parties and involve yourself in that way? 

Van Horn: No, no. I really did not become involved that socially until 
after I retired. It wasn't that I wouldn't have, but the 
occasions didn't seem to arise. Also, I didn't go to the club 
as often as I might have simply because it became a matter of 
timing. I'd have a late lunch anyhow I usually went to lunch 
about 1:00 p.m. And the club stopped serving at about 1:00 
then now it's 1:30. Come to think about it, that's probably 
one reason why I didn't go more often. And I did have other, 
outside interests. 

It just seemed to work out better for the office, and I 
got so that I much preferred the late lunch hour. Something 
was usually going on at noon, and it seemed an undesirable time 
for me to be away. The chairman might be there and he wouldn't 
always be going off promptly for lunch. It just worked out. 


Van Horn: As I say, I enjoyed the club very much, it was a very gracious 
spot, it was an oasis in the middle of a maybe exacting day. 
But all of this I relished no matter what the situation was. 

Riess: Incidentally, was the Men's Faculty Club used by your department 

Van Horn: It was not used heavily by the members of our department, as 
I recall. As my area of awareness kept expanding, I became 
conscious of the fact that not all of the faculty belonged 
I expected all of them would be members, and then I found that 
a number of them were not. I soon came to know the ones who 
were habitue's, and those who went occasionally, and those who 
only went when they were driven, those who had to go to a meeting 
that was a "command performance." And then, maybe, social, 
or if there was some special occasion. 

Some faculty were of a less social temperament, some felt 
that the dues weren't worth it to them, or they just didn't 
care for the food there. Some went over to play cards, play 
. poker or something, regularly there would be a group from other 
departments. And without thinking about it, I came to know, 
"Oh, well, Professor So-and-So; if you want him he'll probably 
be at the club playing cards." That sort of thing emerged. 
But I would say, offhand that at that time, the thirties and 
forties, probably not more than half the department faculty 
were club members. It may have changed later, but that's 
my recollection. 

Riess: I would have assumed that all faculty women would have joined 
the Women's Faculty Club. But on the contrary 

Van Horn: Well, the academic animal depending on his (or her) field, 
discipline is more apt to be less social. 

3) The Planning Committee 

Van Horn: As I say, it's only since I've retired that I've become really 
involved in the club. And that was through an invitation to 
become a member of a committee. 

Riess: What committee was that? 

Van Horn: I was invited to join I guess what you would call the planning 
committee, with Norma Wilier. She was the "chairman," and I, 
and a third member, Lea Miller I believe, who did not serve 


Van Horn: 

Van Horn: 
Van Horn: 

Van Horn: 

very long because she suffered a stroke. As I recall, she had 
an expertise in decorative arts. And this was a very interesting 
and pleasant assignment. I enjoyed it very much. We became 
involved in the redecoration of the club. It was carrying on 
with what Peg Uridge, the president, had tried to do. 

Peg Uridge "s presidency was from 1973-1978. 

Oh, yes; I knew her personally. She was an old friend. 

You're talking about after Peg Uridge? 

As a matter of fact, while Peg was president. While she was 
there, I spent a little more time and I'd have more conversation 
with her when I'd have lunch with her, and I became more 
interested in what she was trying to do, bless her dear heart. 
Every now and then she'd ask me to go with her to pick out some 
material maybe to reupholster a chair or something like that. 
So I began that way. I'd go with her to a decorator's shop 
in Alameda and we'd look over stuff and make a decision; and 
then we might go to another shop to look further. 

I forget exactly when the planning committee became a 
committee as such I think it was under Katherine Williams 
because Peg subsequently became ill. But she was magnificent 
through all that reconstruction of the cluS, all that heavy 
work. The fortitude that woman had! 

And so, this was after the merger issue? 

Yes. I listened to the arguments. I remember one dinner meeting, 
at which we had to vote. That was under President Margaret 
Thal-Larsen, who was a friend of mine. Margaret and I were 
really good friends; she had been a graduate student in the 
Political Science Department. She had a Ph.D. degree and was 
one of our few women doctoral candidates. A brilliant girl, 
really a darling, brilliant girl. 

I knew that this issue, the merger, was going to get 
squeakier and I really didn't feel that I grasped all the 
implications of it. I mean, I listened to the arguments and, 
of course, I knew Josephine Smith, who was very persuasive in 
her point of view. She was a member of the St. Moritz Ice 
Skating Club to which I belonged and I had known her since she 
was assistant to the university budget officer (comptroller). 
I had to have many telephone exchanges with her over budgetary 
matters. But she and I were friends and always got along. 


Van Horn: I finally did vote for the merger, feeling not completely 

persuaded. But I felt that it was going to happen and that 
we'd better be forward-looking. But subsequently the arguments 
were very persuasive that we were going to be carrying the Men's 
Faculty Club debts. 

Riess: But you say that subsequently you came to change your mind. 

Van Horn: I may have changed, but there was no opportunity for changing 

a vote. I began to doubt my, shall I say "wisdom," and I think 
that I came to agree that it probably was the right decision 
[not to merge] . 

I did pay attention to the observation of one Men's Faculty 
Club member who admitted that the management of the men's club 
was just abyssmal. I think he was really sympathetic, that 
it wouldn't be rational to merge. And that was good objectivity 
to pay attention to. 

Riess: The people who felt most strongly included some of the very 
oldest members who had a deep attachment to the building and 
its contents. 

Van Horn: Oh, I think so. And very easy to understand. The two organisms 
really just are so different. Think of the men who really 
appreciate the amenities of the Women's Faculty Club. 

I've had many meals in the Men's Faculty Club. It is a 
charming place, it has a great deal of ambience. But when I 
became involved in the redecoration and the refreshment of the 
Women's Faculty Club there are some very interesting observations 
on that process that I could make if you wanted them I realized 
that the feminine hand was so absent in terms of niceties that 
are reasonable to expect in a men's club. Everything doesn't 
have to be "spit and polish," of course, but there was so much 
neglect that it began to be really it began not to be so 
attractive. Some things would be so battered and not cared 
for and stained a certain amount of this contributes to "charm," 
of course, and it's easy to understand. 

Heaven's, look at some of the colleges at Oxford University, 
where I visited once. One of our department visitors one year 
was the Rector of All Souls College (as I recall) and he invited 
me to call when I went to visit Oxford. He entertained me for 
tea in his "digs" and took me to see the dining room of the 
college, rather "beaten up" the way you might expect it to be, 
you know. Somehow or other you could accept it; you wouldn't 
want it to be pristine. But there's a balance between a sort 


Van Horn: 


Van Horn: 


Van Horn: 

of indifference to, well, stained upholstery; how far is that 
to go? The piano stained by glasses being set upon it. How 
far do you let that go? Is that for atmosphere? 

The point I am trying to make is that there are some men 
to whom this really gets through. And I think they prefer to 
have a polished table instead of a scarred one. 

And of course the comment's been made that the food has 
improved so much in the Women's Faculty Club over The Faculty 
Club (men's). A number of the men have claimed that the place 
to go for good food is to the Women's Faculty Club. 

Tell me about the planning and redecorating. 
Norma Wilier. 

You worked with 

She was the key to it, along with the president, of course. 
It was Norma who redesigned the lounge. 

Now, was this for the club, or was this in her professional 

Oh no, this was for the club. She did this on her own time. 
I mean, this was her contribution as a member of the club. I 
remember that she painted drew and painted in color a redesign 
layout of the lounge. Do you remember it the way it used to 

Riess: No. 

Van Horn: Well, it looked very different. We had drapes, curtains, long, 
sort of off-white curtains which I never felt completely happy 
with. But I wouldn't have said so because Peg Uridge was 
responsible for their being there, and I would never have wanted 
her to feel hurt. She may have felt a little uncomfortable 
about them because a member of the club had volunteered to make 
them. It was a loving thing to do and they really looked nice. 
But I think some members of the club felt, "Really, can't we 
do better?" And ultimately the curtains were eliminated and 
the Riviera blinds were installed we didn't have those then. 

The beautiful big Oriental rug was over on the south side 
of the lounge. And the long library table that's used whenever 
we have parties you know, for serving was way over closer 
to the fireplace. A long couch faced the fireplace, against 
the table, and the table, with lamps, had magazines strewn over 
it. The piano was in the corner on the north side of the room, 
near Dean Davidson's picture. All the other pieces were in 


Van Horn: different spots: that red Chinese cabinet that's on the east 
wall stood against the west wall; a few other pieces were 
completely differently placed. The furniture was not as it appears 
now, because all of those pieces were reupholstered. 

Norma drew all of this in a new arrangement and had ideas 
about which pieces to recover and certain effects or certain 
colors or designs. The refreshments that we carried on having 
new lampshades made, shifting pictures, etcetera, well, those 
were the basic items. 

Riess: Were the walls white before? 

Van Horn: Yes, the coloring was the same, no change in the walls. It 
was a very attractive graphic exhibit which Norma presented. 
And I remember when the Board of Directors was to vote on the 
design or approve it, she wasn't able to attend the meeting, 
so she asked me if I would go in her place and present it. I 
was surprised, really, and it was very pleasing, how readily 
everybody reacted to the design and the suggested upholstery 
samples. The board was completely in favor of it right away. 
So this meant that we could proceed to the materials, decide 
on the designs. And this was lots of fun. 

I did go to the city with Norma on occasion. Because Norma 
as an architect had access to decorators' studios, we went to 
some of the sources for furnishings and materials places, which 
I'd never seen. You know, you have to have an entree. It was 
really a great pleasure. And to see Norma functioning, too! 
So we would all agree, the three of us; and sometimes just she 
and I might agree upon a certain pattern or a certain material. 

Riess: Did you have to have them approved at all? 

Van Horn: I don't think so, in every case. They trusted her taste. Maybe 
I should amend that by saying, undoubtedly yes, she must, yes, 
of course, she checked with the president, she checked with 
Katherine, and with the manager, Maxine Rockwell. 

Riess: There was money to do that refurnishing then, I take it? 

Van Horn: Well, money became successively available. We could do certain 
things up to a point and the Board of Directors would commit 
a certain amount of money. And then there would be another 
wave of acquisition and more funds. This would be transmitted 
to Norma, and she rode herd on the budget outlays. 


Van Horn: As soon as all this was accomplished and all the shif tings were 
made I'm sure there were some, well, not disagreements but 
not everyone saw eye to eye where we might place a particular 
piece, an object d'art; I mean that goes on all the time. I 
participated in the arrangement of certain pieces, the Chinese 
carvings for instance; I determined where they might be placed, 
and my suggestions were accepted. 

Riess: When this was all finished, was there any kind of dedication 
of the new room? 

Van Horn: There was a reception, as I recall. 

4) A Close-up Look at the Rooms 

Van Horn: And then, after that, we began to work on all the individual 
rooms, because they needed so much attention. We made an 
inventory of all the rooms. You know, there are twenty-five 
rooms for rent. There are twenty-six, but one of them is 
occupied by Mrs. [Kay] McCrodden who's the night resident 

Three years ago, when I had been evicted from my rented 
flat [which had been sold] , and I moved to the club for two 
months, as a member of the committee then I had a wonderful 
opportunity to become intimately acquainted with all of these 
rooms . 

I couldn't be sure of occupying a room continuously. While 
I was there I moved eight times. The rooms were all committed 
to others and this shows the extent of the activity. There 
are so many visitors from abroad or from other places, cities 
or institutions, in this country, and one or two who return 
every year. One man even kept his room all of the time. He'd 
be away for months, leaving some of his things in one of the 
closets. I was able to have his room twice when he was away, 
and when he returned I would have to lug all my clothes and 
other possessions to another room. 

Riess: So they get a double income from that room? 

Van Horn: I think not. They have an agreement on its use. So it was 
seven different rooms, though I moved eight times because I 
could go back to the same room. It became a joke; we just 
laughed about it. Sometimes one of the maids helped me shift 
all my things, up or down. How much I appreciated the elevator! 


Van Horn: But this gave me an opportunity to see the condition of these 
rooms so I was able to make more refined reports on what was 
needed. I really was appalled at the condition of some of the 
rooms. There were several rooms that began to look so sad. 
The shades, for instance, would be torn. I remember in a 
particular room one chair even had a broken leg, and the 
occupant, a man, was sitting on that chair with three legs, 
working at the desk. There were spots on the carpets and stains 
and scratches on the furniture! I was able to find a very good 
furniture man who could do refinishing, and I persuaded him 
to be willing to take on the club. I arranged also for a man 
who would take the contract for making new drapes and blinds 
for all of the rooms. So if you were to go into the rooms now, 
it's just as though they had gone through a metamorphosis. 

Riess: If things were going as well as they were in the club financially 
with some money being available, those repairs must have been 
on somebody's agenda. You're not suggesting that you brought 
it to their attention that things had come to this state of 

Van Horn: Oh, no! They knew it. But I could help particularize it at 
times. We made a card record of each room: its condition, 
what it needed. We made a tour. I'd go with Katherine or else 
with Norma and on occasion the three of us were together. 

Ultimately, what I loved was being responsible for hanging 
some of the pictures. I love to hang pictures.' 

Riess: Were the pictures all there? 

Van Horn: No, we had to buy many of them. At least Norma did; I never 

bought any. She ordered and had delivered a number of pictures, 
and then sometimes we'd consult or maybe I'd make a few decisions 
or I'd refer to Katherine or Maxine, or we decided to reverse 
a decision. And I can't tell you what fun it was. We'd try 
this picture, "No, it wasn't compatible with this room, no. 
It'll be better in 208." There are two large rooms with twin 
beds, 208 and 308, really very sweet. 

5) Recent Managers and Presidents 

Van Horn: Katherine, you know, has a background in interior decorating. 
I believe that maybe her family, or her husband had been an 
interior decorator. She's done a great deal for the club. And 
Maxine Rockwell has had experience, too. She's a very interesting 
woman. She was an undergraduate and graduate student in Political 


Van Horn: Science, and has a master's degree in international relations. 
I knew her as a graduate student. And when she turned up at 
the club I was just delighted! She remembered me and I 
remembered her. We're very friendly and spend time chatting 
when we have the opportunity. I'm under the impression that 
she first came maybe part-time, not full-time, but I'm not at 
all certain about this. But she's an excellent manager. And 
she was very skillful at managing during the upheaval. 

That was really a hard time for the staff when all the 
renovations were made; the sprinkler system was put in, the 
elevator had to be installed to meet local code requirements. 
For three stories you have to have an elevator now. 

Riess: I think that the manager before Maxine was Mrs. Curtis. 

Van Horn: Mrs. Curtis, yes. And then she was either ill or had an accident 
as I recall. Then there was another manager. But the whole 
physical arrangement downstairs in the basement was just so 
different. They. didn't really have an efficient set-up 
physically. Dear Peg could cope with any situation; whether 
it was a mass of unorganized material whirling around her made 
no difference. She was above it all. She was just marvelous. 
She had had a very important position in the University Library. 

I remember visiting her once or twice in her office, quite 
a large one. [Excitedly] It was the most jam-packed of any 
office I ever saw! Records and papers, not so many books but 
papers jammed everywhere. It was almost as if she were 
surrounded by a bank of papers. And her desk was overflowing. 
Her thesis was that you didn't waste time putting things back 
that you were going to use. If a drawer would be open, leave 
it open, because you're going to use it shortly. Don't put 
that away, you're going to use it pretty soon! She just thought 
it was wasted energy to put everything back. 

Riess: Now how did she have time to be the president of the club; 
Van Horn: Well, I think it was after she retired. 
Riess: And that's the case for Katherine Williams? 

Van Horn: Oh, definitely. She was assistant registrar, you know, on the 
campus. That's how I knew her. We would do business, hot 
business on the phone, over a lot of things, especially the 
General Catalogue. But then, we always had a very good relation 
ship. She could be hard-hitting; she might "come down" on you 
if there was something you couldn't deliver on. But she was 
really great . 


6) Club Decor, and Club Use 

Van Horn: I think that the club is just so fortunate to have these two 

women who work so well together. Even now I keep noticing slowly 
little, I won't say refinements, but little improvements or 
changes here and there. 

Riess: Like what? 

Van Horn: For instance, on the dining room tables we used to have milk- 
glass vases. Some people thought they were charming, others 
thought them less than charming. I think it was probably 
Katharine who brought in the little ceramic dishes with those 
cute little dried flower arrangements in them. Now those have 
been removed and I noticed recently that each pot is tastefully 
planted with little ferns. 

Riess: Was the library redone with your help? 

Van Horn: No. Norma was certainly responsible for all of that redesigning. 
The Board of Directors decided to make it a memorial to Mrs. 
Uridge. So Norma was completely responsible for all of the 
designing of it. She's done a lot of work for the club. And 
have you noticed the little plaque which is above the door? 

Riess: I haven't, I regret to say. 

Van Horn: It says that the library is a memorial to Margaret W. Uridge. 

It's very tasteful. Previously the library had Dean Stebbins's 
picture hanging over the desk. That is a lovely Chinese desk 
by the way. Well, it was decided to remove the picture since 
the room is now a memorial to Margaret. The portrait was hung 
in the dining room, but now it's been shifted to the hall, the 
foyer; it looks handsome there. Dean Stebbins was a lovely, 
lovely woman. [N.B. The portrait has now been moved to the 
lounge, and hangs on the wall in place of Dean Davidson's portrait 
which has gone elsewhere as it was a loan, I understand. E.vH.] 

Riess: Have you done any other committee work with the club? 

Van Horn: No, no, I haven't. I think the committee rather dwindled away. 
But every now and then Katherine and I have a conversation about 
changing something or doing something. As a matter of fact, 
I suggested moving Dean Stebbins's portrait to the foyer. 

Riess: It's interesting that you bring up Dean Stebbins's portrait. 
I think that there still is a lot of difficulty in the club 
in just doing things, that there are a lot of people who still 
think, "Oh, what's it doing there?" 


Van Horn: Oh, yes. This is bound to be, this is bound to be. 
Riess: You think it's bound to be? 

Van Horn: Oh, yes. Peoples' tastes are so different what looks just 

right looks perfectly awful to someone else. Taste is a very 
delicate subject to ponder. 

Riess: Yes, but it's also a matter of change. 

Van Horn: Exactly. And it's very easy to appreciate this, to understand 
it. Some people like change for the sake of change, regardless 
of what it does to any effect or of any disturbance. Sensitive 
eyes that have a wide angle will feel that moving one part 
as in a painting with an artist if you change one little part 
of it, it affects the whole, and then this becomes a chain 
reaction and you can't stop. I think there are people who, 
maybe unconsciously, are a little apprehensive of a certain 
change, because that means that something else is going to have 
to pay the price. It's very easy to be sympathetic one's 
temperament, one's conditioning is involved. Who knows? 

I had a picture framed at Maxwell Gallery years ago it 
happened to be this one here on my wall, a Breugel. I remember 
the young woman who helped me decide on the framing of it said, 
"You know, it's almost impossible to discuss taste." 

I'm sure that changes in the club can't help but bother 
some, not necessarily the, as they say, "older" members. There 
seem to be more younger women in the club now. And are you 
aware of the fact that women in the community now can be invited 
to become members if they have some association with the univer 
sity, perhaps as a graduate of the university, but also have 
some "meaningful" experience of some significance in the 
community? It was recently announced 

Riess: Under Katherine Williams? 

Van Horn: Yes, yes, very recently, under Katherine. I personally know 
of one such woman who was recently invited to become a member 
of the club who had graduated from the school of librarianship 
now called the School of Library and Information Studies. If 
a woman has had some meaningful or significant experience, 
although it may be with another organization or institution 
or maybe in some .professional sense for a certain period, at 
least three years I don't know how they arrived at three 
years she is eligible for consideration for membership. 


Riess: When Norma and the committee were planning a different sort 

of layout for the living room, did you have in mind space for 
lectures and things like that? 

Van Horn: I think it was just designed to give a little more uplift to 

the lounge, just for the club and the members per se. I don't 
recall that our committee thought about it being used for larger 
groups. At that time, the lounge was not used so frequently 
for luncheon parties. And now you never know if there's going 
to be a luncheon scheduled there. This is part of a money 
raising policy. 

Riess: To let it be used? 

Van Horn: Yes. And not only by campus groups, Mrs. Riess, but by outside 
unrelated groups. I know there is a so-called History Club, 
not one of the University Section clubs, which holds its session 
there. And I have acquaintances who will show up every now 
and then in the club at an afternoon card party. The groups 
do not have an obvious relationship to the campus, but maybe 
it's more so than I appreciate. Think of the weddings which 
have been held there! Making the club available for income 
purposes is a smart idea. But it probably has its limitations, 
because, as I understand from Maxine, sometimes the premises 
are not always treated with the greatest respect. This could 
become a problem. 

7) The Cross-Section of Residents 

Riess: Well, that really brings us very much up to the present. Are 
there any other people or stories or funny things about the 
club that you ought to tell me? 

Van Horn: Well, perhaps ar. interesting little observation that I 

experienced while I was staying at the club for those two months. 
As you may know, there is always a continental breakfast avail 
able that is served between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. in the private 
dining room. And you know its two tables put together are quite 
large, seating something like fourteen people. I would go down 
for breakfast. There might be just a trickle of guests, or 
maybe the table would be full, with quite a variety of guests. 

While 1 was there, there were quite a number of men as 
guests in the club, for short periods of time, maybe a week, 
or a month, or even longer. And the cross-section was really 
fascinating. There was one, an engineer from India, a very 


Van Horn: nice gentleman. Maybe I shouldn't observe this, but I remember 
at the time I felt, "I don't want to go to breakfast while Mr. 
So-and-So is there." I shouldn't have felt this way, but he 
made so much noise with his coffee, he slurped his coffee so, 
that I found it unpleasant and I didn't want to sit by him 
as might be necessary. But I thought, "What a trivial attitude 
to have." And I thought, "How often do these little things 
disturb people and condition their social response." It was 
because it was so intimate, you know. So I thought, "Well, 
you can at least rise above the irritation; it's just So-and-So 
slurping his coffee." 

And then we had a very interesting Russian, Ajaz Adil Ogly 
Efendiev. He was a professor of chemical engineering from Baku 
in Azerbijan that we call "Azer-by- j an . " But he informed me, 
"Mrs. van Horn, it is Azerbijan. " He was a young man, black- 
haired, big, overweight, really fat, rather what we would say 
a little overbearing in manner, but only because it was his 
exuberance, I think. He spoke English pretty well, with a 
very obvious heavy accent. We had met at breakfast and then 
we had some conversation a little later. 

There is a lounge upstairs on the second floor with a 
television in it. Every morning after breakfast some of the 
men would go in to catch the news. I would sometimes go in 
to see what was happening as I didn't have a daily paper then. 
Pretty soon I noticed that the door would be closed and I would 
hear the men laughing. I opened the door 6nce to go in, but 
there were so many of them I thought, "Well, there aren't enough 
chairs and somebody will have to give me his seat," so I excused 

Then another time it seemed to be vacant so I thought I'd 
pop in before anybody came. And in came Mr. Efendiev! He came 
bounding in hope this never gets back to him but he bounded 
in, turned the station on the TV without asking, went over to 
the window and threw it open, sat down, and lit a cigar. You 
know, this really annoyed me. I can't bear cigar smoke; it 
almost makes me sick. But I thought, "Never mind, now." Then 
he engaged me in conversation, and after a while I couldn't 
stand the smoke so I finally left.* 

*At this point the interviewer was out of tape, but Mrs. van 
Horn went on to describe the guests at the Women's Faculty 
Club. At our request, she later wrote the material out, 
and we include it following. 


Van Horn: Another time we met and he started to talk to me a bit. He 
understood there was some way he could find help with his 
English. There is an organization on campus for this purpose. 
Maybe you have heard of it: English In Action, associated with 
the University Y.W.C.A. On request, volunteers are available 
to meet with foreign visitors (usually scholars) on a one-to-one 
basis, on a more or less fixed schedule, for one hour a week. 

As I am a member of this group, I volunteered to meet with 
Mr. Efendiev, after he had registered with the English In Action 
chairman chairwoman at the Y House. After he was "accepted" 
as a conversation partner, we met once a week in the morning 
at the Women's Faculty Club since we were both residents not 
at Y House where meetings are usually held. 

Our sessions were most interesting and stimulating, to 
me, certainly. He asked many questions about our governmental 
institutions, especially local, about our election process, 
tax system, etcetera, and we talked also about music, which 
we both agreed was the most universal form of communication. 
He brought me two classical recordings by Russian symphony 
orchestras, a Rimski-Korsakov and a Chopin. 

He inquired a bit about myself, and showed considerable 
interest in my new home which, after two months of searching, 
finally materialized.- I thought that it would be kind to invite 
him to see it. So one afternoon he came for tea, bringing 
another Russian record, Glasunow. He took off his coat, hung 
it carefully over the back of a chair, then took a quick tour 
of the flat, pronouncing it very attractive, even though I was 
scarcely settled. After serving him much coffee and cake, I 
played his record. 

He then asked to see my record collection, pronouncing 
it "very good." It is so small, I had to laugh. Maybe he was 
just being polite. I happened to turn up a record of popular 
music: Hary Owens' Royal Hawaiian Band, and asked Mr. Efendiev 
if he was familiar with this kind of music. He was not, so I 
put it on the hi fi. It is charmingly lyrical in that special 
Hawaiian way, if you know it. 

Suddenly Mr. Efendiev asked, "Mrs. van Horn, do you dance?" 
When I replied affirmatively, he -raid, "Let us tango." So, 
a little tentatively, I agreed, not knowing how much I might 
remember of tango steps. We started out dancing on the living 
room rug, but his tango turned out to be just a "one-step" or 
"two-step." To my surprise, he was a wonderful dancer, very 
light on his feet as many fat men are said to be. 


Van Horn: It was a delightful moment. Then he put on his coat, kissed 

my hand, saying, "Mrs. van Horn, I respect you very much. You 
are the most intelligent woman I have met" which may not say 
much for his breadth of experience! As he is a member of 
the Communist Party (we talked of this a bit earlier) , I wondered 
lightly what some conservative souls might have thought of such 
an episode! He gave me his address in Baku, and we have 
exchanged Christmas cards ever since. He was warmly expressive 
of the service and attention that he received at the Women's 
Faculty Club, and wrote also to Mrs. Rockwell and the "lovely 
ladies" of the club staff. 

Other interesting little incidents took place at the club 
during my stay. An Australian professor of music, Manfred Clynes, 
would at times play the piano in the club lounge, really 
practising. As he was a strong player, I think that the sound 
was a little too much at times for some of the residents. He 
had given to me two cassette tapes of his recordings, Bach's 
Goldberg Variations and a Beethoven Sonata. Thinking that it 
would be nice to hear them, I arranged for them to be played 
one evening in the lounge, having borrowed a tape player from 
a visiting young Englishman staying in the club. The "concert" 
was attended by several guests, including Mr. Efendiev and a 
particularly interesting, well informed, and delightful professor 
of canon law from London University, Charles Duggan, who comes 
to the university each year for several months to carry on his 
research at Boalt Hall. He is often accompanied by his beautiful 
wife, who is also a professor. I don't. recall her field 
precisely but think that it is rhetoric or literature. 

Other foreign guests during my stay included visitors from 
Germany, Australia, India, Turkey, in addition to several 
faculty members from other, United States universities. A pretty 
young woman from India, a Ph.D. in Public Health, wore colorful 
saris, which carried an odor of camphor or such slightly dis 
tracting if you sat by her at breakfast! She developed some 
transportation problems with which I was able to help her, so 
we had a very nice friendly exchange later. She called upon 
me in my room to say goodbye, bringing a little gift of Indian 
handcraf t. 

I might make just one more interesting comment on life 
in the club. It pertains to the use of the two kitchens on 
the second and third floors. These are nicely equipped kitchens, 
with refrigerators and with printed instructions posted on 
the walls. I was aware that the kitchens were well used. In 
fact, I would often heat some milk for a late-night glass before 
I went to bed. The refrigerator would be packed tightly to 


Van Horn: the edges with food and containers. My carton of milk was always 
untouched. At times I smelled various dishes cooking, some 
odors not exactly recognizable. I am sure that some of our 
guests must have had to make ends meet at times by managing 
their own meals, or else American food left much to be desired 
and the need for a native dish was compelling. The provision 
of these facilities by the club must be greatly appreciated 
by all. 

Transcriber: John McPherson 
Final Typist: Catherine Winter 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Katharine Van Valer Williams 

1) A Career in University Administration 225 

2) The Women's Faculty Club, 1971-1977 226 

3) Presidency, 1978, and Refurnishing the Rooms 229 

4) An Active, Interested Board 232 

5) Committee Support 234 

6) Management 237 

7) The Kitchen 240 

8) The Gardens 243 

9) Club Finances 247 
10) Future Plans 249 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 25, 1983 

Katharine Van Valer Williams, Assistant Registrar, 
University Registrar's Office, and President of The 
Women's Faculty Club. Standing right: Willa Baum, 
Division Head, Regional Oral History Office. 

Presentation of individual oral histories. Seated, 
facing camera, left to right: Margaret Murdock, 
Josephine Miles, Marian Diamond, Elizabeth Scott. 
Standing, left to right: Bonnie Wade, Evelyn Nichols, 
Suzanne Riess, Katherine V. Williams. Seated, backs to 
camera: Gudveig Gordon-Britland, Eleanor Van Horn, 
Mary Ann Johnson, Agnes Robb. 


Katharine Van Valer Williaias 

July 21, 1982 

Interviewed in the Library of the Women's Faculty Club 

1) A Career in University Administration 

Riess: What is your background at this university? 

Williams: I came in 1956 to the university simply because I was tired of 
volunteering my time and all that. I thought it would be 
interesting to do work with animals. Well, that's one way to 
look at it, because I got involved in the Registrar's Office 
[chuckles] , as a typist clerk. 

Certain promotions followed, and I was involved in space 
assignment, which was very new on campus, and I worked closely 
with the Building and Campus Development Committee, which later 
fell into disuse during all the upset and unrest on campus, 
and now again I gather is very active and serving a real purpose. 

Riess: That was the committee that [Clark] Kerr started, and it included 
William Wurster, Thomas Church, and Louis de Monte? 

Williams: Yes, and I'm trying to think of other names, but at the moment 

they escape me. And there was really an office for space assign 
ment: we moved people, we shifted people, we did all kinds of 
things. That also was at the time when buildings were still 
being built on campus, so the decision had to be made, "Whose 
building was this to be and who's to go into it?" It was 
extremely interesting. 

Then I fell into the position (which I later retained) 
of publishing the General Catalogue and having all that to-do 
which is very involved: assigning all the classes on campus, 
assigning all space, except office space. It just kind of grew 
like Topsy, and it was extremely interesting to watch the whole 
thing develop. I enjoyed every minute of it, up until about 
two years before I retired when things were not as interesting 
as they had been, or should be, and were not going to change. 
I retired in 1977. 


Riess : 



Williams : 


Williams ; 

What was your title when you retired? 

Assistant registrar. 

Do you think opportunities for advancement in the administration 
of the university are that good, or was it something about you? 

It was very different then, really very different. The Personnel 
Office was not structured as it is today, and we didn't have 
the discriminatory laws all of these things came later. I 
think department heads, people who were responsible for large 
departments such as the Registrar's Office and the Admissions 
Office it was like running one's own business, so they got 
the best people they could. It wasn't a matter of interviewing 
forty-five people and then giving it to somebody who had earned 
it and was in the office and had the experience and so on. That 
I don't find of value. But again, I think it's a matter of 
timing, at least it was for me; I was just there at the right 
time and it was perfect. 

And that's also a nice testimonial to being a slightly older 
woman coming back and looking for work. 

That's right, yes. But it didn't occur to me at any point that 
there wasn't somewhere that I'd find something interesting. 
And that's why typist clerk didn't bother me; I've never been 
able to type, but they found other things for me to do. And 
once in a while somebody would say, "This needs to be typed," 
and then I would just kind of stand there. Dear Heaven, I've 
never met a typewriter that could spell! [laughs] But at any 
rate, yes, it was very different and I didn't care as long as 
I got out of the other. It was just too long years on the 
Girl Scout board, years with Children's Home Society, charitable 
things and all. They still needed help, but my head wasn't 
fresh enough at that point to be of any value. 

2) The Women's Faculty Club, 1971-1977 

Riess: Who asked you to join the Women's Faculty Club, or what was 
your first awareness of the club? 

Williams: I was aware of the club early on, because of course I came up 
here with my predecessor, and went to the Men's Faculty Club 
also. But at that time the membership requirement I guess was 
administrative assistant and at that point I was a principal 
clerk. And after I became an administrative assistant, because 


Williams: it had disturbed me a great deal that there was this limitation, 
I didn't make any effort to join. I really can't remember what 
spurred me on to join. But anyway, it was in 1971. 

Riess: Well, when you used to come up with your predecessor, what were 
your impressions of the club? 

Williams: It was very pleasant, oh yes, very different than it is now. 
There wasn't the vitality or the liveliness there is now, I 
suppose because there are so many more members and it is a more 
youthful group. I haven't really thought about it. 

Riess: But you would like to have joined if it had been open to you 
at that level you felt was appropriate? 

Williams: Well, yes, because I'd never been refused admittance to anything 
else. [laughs] 

Riess: After all, you'd been successful in the community all these 


Williams: Yes, it was strange. Well, there is a great deal of difference 
on any campus, not just this campus, between the academia and 
the administrative offices. This I sensed and disliked intensely. 
But again, I wish I could remember what it was that impelled 
me to join when I did. 

Riess: You don't think it was the invitation of somebody? 

Williams: It could have been, it could have been, and it's just left my 

Riess: When you joined did you follow your pattern of being active? 

Williams: No, I just joined. It was after I retired that I became a member 
of the board. 

Riess: Not until 1977? 

Williams: 1977, right. Peg Uridge then invited me to become vice president, 
which we both agreed entailed nothing at all: no duties 
particularly unless oh, just help with this and that. And 
then she was taken ill so suddenly in July of '78 and died in 
October of '78. There just was no way to avoid this situation 
of someone having to take over and take charge. There was no 
one else on the board that was retired and had the time to do 
it. Now I'm hoping to get the staff moving in such a way and 
things laid out in such a way that the standards are not relaxed 
and a president could be active on campus and still perform 
the duties of president. 


Riess: When Mary Ann Johnson and I interviewed she pointed out that 

she was the first president who had not come from the academic 
side. And I guess since her time they've been from the adminis 
trative side. 

Williams: I'm trying to think in terms of well, Peg Uridge was Librarian, 
and that's an academic title, as far as I understand it. It's 
kind of an "iffy." But yes, I think you must be right. 

Riess: Margaret Thal-Larsen and Mary Lou Norrie were faculty. And 
then Peg Uridge, and you. 

When someone becomes president, they then appoint their 
vice president? 

Williams: No, it's an election by the board. Peg Uridge simply asked 
if I would be willing to be vice president and I said "yes" 
and so it was then put to an election. The by-laws read that 
way, that the election is by a majority of the board. 

Riess: During that period from 1971 to 1977, how involved were you 
in the merger? 

Williams: Not at all, with the exception of attending an annual meeting 
and trying to find out what values there were in it. 

Oh, I'll backtrack slightly. It was time to vote on this, 
on the merger, the 1976 vote, and Peg Uridge was president at 
the time, and I came to an annual meeting and I really couldn't 
get any answers to my quite direct questions. What I was doing 
was treading on a number of toes, I suspect. I really wanted 
an answer, I wanted to know what was behind it all one way or 
another, and I wasn't satisfactorily answered until we (the 
members) voted, and then due to some technicality in the law 
another vote had to be taken. At that time Josephine Smith 
sent the financial statement from the Men's Faculty Club along, 
so that we had access to this information. And of course that's 
why it was defeated. 

Riess: For you there were obvious questions, and yet it was impossible 
to get the answers. 

Williams: Well, people would answer me, but in their own way. and I didn't 
know these people well enough to interpret it. Now since I 
have some knowledge of what went on, I'm really very much 
surprised at those who were so much in favor of it though it 
would have been so detrimental to this club. 


Riess: Once you got the information you were against the merger? 

Williams: Oh yes! There was no question, and I think it changed many 
opinions because it was in cold print, how much in debt the 
Men's Faculty Club was and how they would use this club. 

Riess: When you were on the board, did the club feel divided, or was 
it united once it had made that decision? 

Williams: I didn't have any feeling of division, but I think it's because 
at that time I really didn't know many of these women very well. 
Since then, I realize that there must have been a feeling of 

Riess: Several resigned, fifteen I think. 

Williams: I don't know the number, but yes, several resigned. And I don't 
understand that. 

Riess: In the years since you've been president has the question of 
merger re-emerged? 

Williams: No, no. 

Riess: So it's really a dead issue now? 

Williams: Well, it is as far as we're concerned. And I think the reason 
that it's a dead issue is that when we started to move, the 
first thing that had to be done was to refurnish the rooms, 
to bring the rooms up to standard (and I'm afraid it was my 
standard). We just took off then and we haven't stopped since, 
and so nobody speaks of anything else, in terms of a merger 
or anything of the sort, to my knowledge. 

Riess: Because you don't need the merger. 
Williams: Right. We didn't ever need it. 

3) Presidency, 1978, and Refurnishing the Rooms 

Riess: I'm interested in how you have taken the reins and yet dealt 

with the enormous sense of history. Many members would probably 
be happy just to get you off into the corner and tell you exactly 
how to do things . 






Well, they've been most kind, most kind. They applaud everything 
we do, they're pleased with the way the club looks, it's the 
way that they always wanted it to look. We're not actually 
in a moneymaking situation, but we're certainly not in business 
to lose money. They all recognize this and see that this is 
really what they'd been aiming at. 

No, I've had no such advisors. It may be that my own 
[laughing] effrontery in just coming in and doing may have had 
something to do with it. 

You were certainly the new broom. 

I just couldn't stand back and watch a place with such potential 
simply be mediocre. It's not my nature, although I didn't know 

that before, 

I see now it's followed a pattern throughout my 

Have you ever visited any of the residential rooms? We've 
had them all painted and they are really beautiful. I've just 
bought fresh bedspreads and things like that. As I've said, 
checking through the rooms to see what was needed I found one 
bathmat, for instance, that somebody had kept putting down even 
though someone must have taken a bite out of one corner and 
there was a great bleach spot in the center of it. I just picked 
it up and threw it away. We don't need that kind of thing, 
and I for one wouldn ' t pay money for a room furnished in such 
a fashion! 

Who should pick it up and throw it away? 
conceived of the job that way. 

Maybe no maid ever 

I think now they might, because you see this has really happened 
in a short time, when you consider the age of the club. And 
we have one maid now who has been here for some time; the one 
that we'd had, who'd been here for nearly ten years, left and 
her daughter took her place. Anna Philips 's [the supervising 
maid] help is a student, a very fine young woman, but we need 
continuity there. 

It's the same thing in the dining room. The students who 
have returned and who return to us year after year as long as 
they're in school see this kind of thir.g. They see a cracked 
cup and know that it goes out: it isn't used in service. 
Somebody else will not think about it, so that it takes a 
certain amount of time. Again, continuity is the answer. 


Riess: The standards the presidents in the past, I'm assuming, didn't 
see their job the way you see your job. 

Williams: I think, really and truly Suzanne, that the real problem has 
been fear. The club went through such penny to penny days. 
Peg Uridge was a fine manager and did all the managing. 

Riess: Even though she had a paid manager. 

Williams: Right. She did the payrolls, she did the bills, she did the 
incoming and outgoing, anything that you can say or think of 
in an office, she did it. 

Riess: She too was retired when she had the job. 

Williams: Right. And of course this filled her days, and very happily. 
She couldn't have done anything else, it was her nature, and 
she built up a fine financial backlog. (But as you know, we 
are non-profit, so that we can only go so far on that kind of 
thing or the IRS gets after us. We haven't heard from them 
yet because we're doing enough maintenance work and rehabili 
tating of the club.) I feel very strongly that each president 
is capable of something; we all have areas, strengths, and that 
was Peg's, the money that she managed so beautifully. 

When I came along it was really fairly simple though we're 
still terribly careful to go ahead and do these things. As 
a result prices could be raised. People come back year after 
year from abroad because this is the only place they want to 
stay, because we do take such care. 

Riess: I'm sure it made a difference when the turnover in the residents 
became established. There was no need to do any rehabilitating 
when you had people bedded down year after year. 

Williams: Forever, really. They furnished the rooms as they wished. It 
was treated at one point, very poorly I think, many years ago, 
as a ladies dormitory in a se.ise, and that's really not what 
it was meant to be. Now the by-laws limit it to, I think, two 
years of residency. 

Riess: I get a vision of Lucy Stebbins saying "what it was meant to 
be." You believe in the history to that extent? 

Williams: Oh, yes. To serve the campus community. I can't remember 

reading anywhere that it was meant as a home. I really can't. 
Have you read anything along that line? 




Williams: I haven't either. I think that it just simply evolved. These 
were all very strong-minded women, so who was to put them out 
and where were they to go? 

4) An Active, Interested Board 

Riess: It has been five years since you became a member of the board, 
and now president. What is the composition of your board? How 
do you work with the board? 

Williams: It's a very active, interested board. We have board meetings 
every month and they're always very well attended. We're not 
having one in August because everybody's going on vacation in 
August and that's the first one missed, I guess I'm not sure 
if they always had them in the summertime early on. But everyone 
speaks up. 

Riess: People are on the board because they want to be on the board? 

Williams: Oh yes. We've had one or two for whom it was a status thing, 

but they soon dropped out of their own volition. Non-attendance 
is just a waste of time for all of us. 

Riess: Does the composition reflect the membership's sex and diversity? 

Williams: There are eleven board members, including myself, and two are 

men. Tom [Thomas G.] Rosenmeyer has just retired from the board, 
simply because he's got a Guggenheim again and is going off 
to work on that. Daniel Heartz is joining us in September; 
John Fleming is from the Law School. We all find this mix very 
good, because women can get very bogged down on one little issue 
of, oh, maybe twenty-five cents to raise the price of something 
in the dining room. So we find it very refreshing, and I think 
that a third male would be a good idea it's a good balance. 

Riess : Do you think that the men bring out the best in the women? 

Williams: Yes. Oh, yes. Because women traditionally have wanted to appear 
at their best, and so naturally this is what happens when you're 
using your head a little bit more. And it doesn't get into 
a gossipy, petty thing at all. 

Riess : I wonder what being on a board with all those women brings out 
in the men? 


Williams: [Laughing] Amusement! And sometimes a sense of, "What in 
the world could that have been about?" 

Riess: Are the men from the academic side? 
Williams: Oh, yes. They are both professors. 

Riess: What is the balance between academic and non-academic women 
members? Do you have an idea? 

Williams: I have those figures somewhere, but I can't locate them. I 
think the annual meeting minutes might give them to us. You 
see, we have far more men members now than we did a year ago 
this time. 

Riess: Do you get non-academic men as members? 

Williams: Oh yes, oh yes. I was just trying to think of the proportion 
and I can't really say. I would say there are fewer adminis 
trative than there are faculty because we must have all of 
Boalt Hall probably because this is the only good food around. 
The School of Optometry it's the same thing. I find it a very 
pleasant mix to come and go and greet members of both sexes. 

Riess: How about the balance between academic and non-academic women 
on the board? Is that structured? 

Williams: There is not a good balance. Doris Britt she's from the School 
of Social Welfare, yes, and she's a field supervisor, so it's 
an academic title but the rest are administrative. I'd like 
very much to break that up, but I find it is very difficult 
to get women faculty members on the board. 

Josephine Miles has explained that to me. She's tried 
for a long time to organize seminars for women faculty members 
and in this way to introduce new women faculty members to the 
club and its advantages. Well, we don't have a great many social 
affairs; we have several a year, but they'ie not dances, they're 
simply pleasant gatherings for members. And she said that these 
younger women faculty members are very much involved in their 
jobs and generally have classes at lunchtime. They cannot attend 
these seminars or gatherings or meetings of such women. As 
a result they have no interest in serving on a board; they simply 
do not have the time or the energy. As far as coming up here 
for lunch, that's fine occasionally, but generally it's a brown 
bag lunch in their offices in between classes. So I really 
have had a difficult time with getting women faculty members 
to serve on the board. 


Riess: Does Josephine Miles have any suggestions, or is she just 
explaining the situation? 

Williams: We've both gone through this over and over again for two or 

three years now. It's strange, because it would seem that women 
could be proud of this club, faculty members. 

Riess: Well, Marian Diamond, I think, is more active in the men's 
club now. 

Williams: She is, but she's still a member here. 

Riess: Has that been a pattern, now that the men's club is available 
to the academic women? 

Williams: Not especially. Some, of course, have found activity there, 

but you see those are women who have already served their time 
here; they've either been president or they've been on the board 
or various committees or helped organize certain functions, 
and they really served their time here. I don't know whether 
there's more to it than that or not, whether it's more pleasurable 
with new faces and so - on, or if in the academic structure there's 
a need to move in those circles. 

5) Committee Support 

Riess: Which are the important committees for you as a president? How 
much do you count on your committees? 

Williams: I count on them a good deal I like help. Often I have to go 
it alone because everybody else works. But there's the budget 
and finance committee, which is invaluable. Jerry [Jerome F.] 
Thomas is the chairman of that he's a professor of sanitary 

Riess: These are committees not necessarily from the board? 

Williams: Well, there will be a board member, generally. Sally Senior 
is on that board as treasurer and I sit in. There are two or 
three other "-.ambers. The library committee Alice Davis, who's 
a board member, is in charge of that. She's gone through all 
the many books that we've had left to us and that has been quite 
a job. She passes on the ones that we can't use or have 
duplicates of, and she's arranged the library to much better 
advantage than it was before. She's sifted through and so on. 


Williams: She will also be in charge of this picture taking business that 
I was saying about the garden. [Mrs. Williams refers to an 
album of photographs of the garden memorial areas, planned to 
be a companion to photographs of the club treasures.] 

The house decorating committee has really and truly evolved 
into primarily Maxine Rockwell and myself. Again, who has the 
time to go through the rooms to do these things that have to 
be done? 

Riess: That's what the house committee is? 

Williams: Right, primarily. And then again, right or wrong, we've moved 
very rapidly on some of these things if you can believe red 
plastic curtains in a residential room! It was necessary! 

Riess: It's better not to be operating by committee on something like 

Williams: Really, truly. For instance, Eleanor van Horn was in the 

other day and I was trying to get Lucy Stebbins's portrait out 
of the dining room, because that's been a source of great comment. 
Some members were bitter about that; they thought I had just 
put her behind the door. Well, it all comes down to Dean 
Davidson's portrait in the lounge, which I discovered was 
brought over here for safe-keeping in '76. I thought it belonged 
to the club, but I discovered that it is the same situation 
as Ida Sproul's portrait, which is in the vault, as you know, 
for safe-keeping. 

When I-House [International House] builds a room, a Sproul 
room, they'll use the portrait, but it should be out of here, 
out of our responsibility. Dean Davidson too both portraits 
came from their respective residence halls [Ida Sproul Hall 
and Davidson Hall] where they had been vandalized. There are 
members who feel that although Bobbie Davidson lived here for 
many years, she was not that important and should not be in 
the lounge. Well, there is no other wall big enough to put 
her on [laughs] . 

I felt very strongly that many of our members don't get 
into the lounge, they're in the dining room, and it seemed to 
me that Lucy Stebbins was just perfect in there on that white 
wall, and the lighting was perfect. We took her out of here 
[library] because this is now the Margaret Uridge Library. But 
I'm still getting letters. 

Riess: Now she's out in the hall. 


Williams: Yes. [Two months later both the Sproul and Davidson portraits 
were returned to the university, and Lucy Stebbins's portrait 
is at last in the lounge, and very handsome it is, too. KVW, 

When Eleanor van Horn was at lunch one day, and I was at 
my wits end, I said, "Eleanor, we've got to measure and put 
Lucy somewhere else." So we measured and it just fit. It's 
not really as it should be, but it's there [dining room, 7/21/81] 
and it's better. And I appreciated Margaret Murdock's reaction, 
"Oh, I so enjoy seeing Bobbie's smiling face in the morning." 

Riess: Could you put Bobbie Davidson up in her old room and call it 
the Bobbie Davidson Room? 

Williams: We've had that come up too. Florence Minard suggested that 
the rooms be named after various members, and I said that I 
felt that could be left to another president [laughs]. I'm 
not about to enter into that. Who makes the selection? We 
only have twenty-six rooms. 

Riess: What does the budget committee handle? 

Williams: They make up the budget for the coming year, and they then make 
recommendations, such as, "We should spend more money in this 
area," or, "We should raise more salaries," and so forth and 
so on. They use the quarterly reports that come in from our 
accountant. They work those over. The dining room, for instance, 
if it's not breaking even they then recommend that prices be 
raised. The board policy has been that the rooms will support 
the dining room. That's what we can do for our members, not 
raise prices so that they can't come to lunch. So it's I 
mustn't say casual, but it's an advisory kind of thing. 

Remember, when we started this we didn't have records. 
We didn't have a cook; we got all of our food from the dining 
commons. Now we've got salaries and we've got lots of things 
to look at that we didn't have before. 

Riess: What are the other board committees that are important? 
Williams: Well, membership. 

Riess: Are there serious decisions about memberships? Do people who 
apply have to be screened? 


Williams: No, no. I now see the reason, though I don't think it was 

entirely this, why no one below administrative assistant [was 
accepted] . In those days administrative assistant was a big 
title here on campus. We've had some people who couldn't, 
even as low as our dues are, they couldn't manage payment. They'd 
eat lunch all the time, and then suddenly here was this sizable 
bill. That was a pretty good reason for limiting it to people 
whose salaries were commensurate with the costs. 

Now I would say we include Administrative Assistant II 
I'm not sure of the title now but it seems reasonable that 
way, because senior clerks come and go and move and change and 
don't have the salary. 

Riess: So is the membership committee a routine ? 

Williams: Actually, there was a big conversation for a long time about 

how we could build up the membership. Well, we have not turned 
a hand. I sign a new application card every time I come in, 
and sometimes three, four and five. And I sign them only because 
Lotte's not here. Lotte Dadone is the chairman, and she signs 
the membership cards, but I'm here so much that it's just easier 
for me to do it than to bother Lotte and they'd have to wait 
maybe for some time. They all come in, have lunch "I've got 
to be a member!" [laughs] So they don't want to wait. 

6) Management 

Riess: What is the management structure here? How do the president 
and the board work with the management? 

Williams: The board likes to think that it sets policy only, but it gets 

involved in a lot of other activities because I involve it in 

them. I feel that every board member should have a pretty good 

idea of what's going on here. At any rate, they set policy. 

Then we have a manager, who is at present Mrs. Rockwell. 
We have a bookkeeper, Mrs. Waldburger, and Mrs. [Evelyn] Nichols, 
comes in and does payroll and accounts payable and receivable 
and all manner of things. Then of couroe we have Chikako Pierce, 
who is on the desk where the telephone is answered and makes 
reservations and checks people out and checks people in and 
all that sort of thing. We have student help in the evening 
and on Saturdays and Sundays and holidays. And Mrs. Rockwell 
answers to the board. 


Williams: Heretofore, Mrs. Uridge had a secretary, who at present is the 
night supervisor here, has a room, and she sat in on all the 
board meetings, and therefore reported everything to the staff 
about what needed to be done. 

Riess: That was a chain of communication that had been set up by Peg 

Williams: Apparently. I saw no need for it because we had a manager, and 
you must understand that in those days and this seems silly 
because it was only three or four years ago she was paid 
something like $700 a month. Salaries were like that here. 
And again that extends from that fear of money, whether we would 
have enough. 

Riess: That was the manager's salary, not the night manager's. 

Williams: Right. The night manager doesn't have a salary. She works 
on campus, lives here. I had been president some time when 
I realized that in order to quell complaints about being over 
worked (the understanding was that she would supervise 
activities that were going on here like weddings and receptions 
on the weekends) , the board voted that she was to have at least 
a hundred dollars a month to offset this, and this to be tax- 
free and so forth. Which did what it was meant to. 

We have a capable staff; all they needed was to be let 
do their jobs and given the reins. It took some time to get 
them to understand that it was all right to make a decision. 

Riess: Does the manager herself attend the board meetings? 

Williams: No, because the board then decided that there was no reason 
for the manager to have to take that much extra time out of 
a very busy day . 

At one point we did meet from 5:30 on, and that we changed 
to the 4:30 to 6:30, because people could easily come here at 
that time. If people want to socialize they can do it after 
the board meeting. We have really very quick board meetings. 
The most I think we've ever gone to is maybe ten minutes to 
7:00 p.m. Most people have had a busy day! We can resolve 
these things we don't have to spend a whole night on them. 

The board decided that Mrs. Rockwell and I could work 
together and that I would come to the board with things that 
Mrs. Rockwell felt were needed and that that was enough liaison. 
If I feel that something can be presented better by Mrs. Rockwell 


Williams: I ask her to come, and she's always quite willing to. Or she 

can write a letter to the board, this kind of thing. From there, 
then, it filters on down. 

Riess: Are there men in any of the management positions other than 
the waiters? 

Williams: No. David Horn is our accountant, but he's his own man, he 
has his own business. 

Riess: You said what a refreshing addition it was having men on the 
board; have you ever considered having men on the staff? 

Williams: I guess we did try at one point. Not on the staff, but as a 
custodial thing. But you see we've only this year, in my 
estimation, reached a point with salaries that even a retired 
man might be interested in it. They were always so little. 

Riess: Are they not on a scale commensurate with the rest of the 

Williams: Now they are, but they weren't before, when you compare $700 
to the salary of a residence hall manager, which I use as the 
equivalent on campus. 

Riess: I guess maybe there's a history of people, like Margaret Murdock, 
almost volunteering their time, just saying, "Well, I'll do it." 

Williams: That's exactly what people did, I think, because there was really 
a need. I know that you heard, as I heard last year for the 
first time, that at one point there was so little interest 
shown in the club that it was going to be sold to the university. 
They were going to take it over and use it as library carrels. 
Unbelievable! And somebody stepped in it was Florence Minard 
who finally got the word out. "This is what's happening." 
Isn't it interesting that there's always some individual who 
comes along at the right time. Again, I insist that it's all 

Riess: But it all seems a little bit brinksman-like; it's only at the 
crisis point that that person stands up. 

Williams: Yes, yes. And that's exactly what I want to keep tlie club from 
now. It's important that it just move of its own momentum. 


7) The Kitchen 

Riess: What has been the evolution of the kitchen in the years that 
you've been here? 

Williams: I can only really tell you about these years because before 
I gather there was a manager and his wife and they did the 
cooking and so forth and so on. 

Riess: Actually he didn't do the cooking. There was a famous "Katy" 
who did the cooking, Katy who made the wonderful popovers and 
roast beef. 

Williams: [laughs] Yes, I'll be interested in reading this in these oral 

When I came into it there was a Mrs. Lee all I can think 
of is her nickname, which was Midge and she had done this kind 
of thing in the public school. She was about five foot tall 
and energy you can't believe! A charming woman, and she acted 
as a hostess, in a sense, in the dining room. She would take 
the food that was brought over from the dining commons and add 
parsley, add chives, decorate it in some way so that the presen 
tation was much more pleasing although the food was quite 
mediocre, because the dining commons is that way. 

Riess: This is the dining commons which was on the bottom floor of 
the Student Union? 

Williams: That's right. And so we struggled along that way for a while, 
gradually buying things elsewhere to fill in, to make it more 
attractive and better tasting. Then we decided to go all out 
and get a cook. Alice Boschan, who had been with the dining 
commons, came in to cook. 

Riess: When was that? 

Williams: It would have been about two years ago last December, probably 

She made salads, and more and more we drew away from the 
dining commons they were very arbitrary, very arrogant, about 
what we could have and couldn't have. Amazingly enough, I 
reacted to that in a very different way than they expected. 
We found we were buying our own meat, because they were sending 
us roast beef it was another cut of beef that was sliced, but 


Williams: it wasn't what we call roast beef. So all this time we were 
gradually bringing standards up and up until finally we just 
simply closed our arrangement with the dining commons. 

Then we experimented with deliveries from Berkeley Market, 
but they stopped delivering. Now, Mrs. Rockwell and Mrs. Nichols 
take turns picking the desserts up from Neldam's. Dreyer's 
delivers (and I don't remember what kind of ice cream it was 
before that). But in all of this too there's been development 
in the kitchen. We now have an absolutely fantastic stove. 
I don't know whether you've ever seen it. But that was an 
experience! If you've ever shopped for a stove like that, these 
great, great monsters, absolutely stunning, from somewhere out 
in Hayward or San Leandro, somewhere on the waterfront. 

Then Mrs. Boschan had a very unfortunate accident; she 
and her husband were driving on Arlington Avenue and somehow 
or other he lost control of the car and it flipped over that 
big embankment. Happily, neither one of them was hurt it was 
really miraculous except Alice had a back and neck problem. 

Lori Gallo, who filled in and worked with Mrs. Boschan, 
took over absolutely beautifully in between her classes. Then 
we got another part-time worker I think Faye had worked with 
the dining commons. She works four or five hours (she only 
wants so much time you see), and she of course is invaluable. 

About Christmas time, Mrs. Boschan decided that she just 
couldn't do it anymore because it would be a matter of being 
here and then not being here for two days, this kind of thing 
ir really was very unfortunate for them. But in the meantime 
as usual our perfect timing Julienne LeBlanc came from the 
East Coast to be with her parents and grandparents here in 
Berkeley and she, of course, with her professional background, 
was ideal. 

Riess: You had advertised the job? 

Williams: No, we never seem to advertise. Just suddenly by word of mouth 
here she was, available. She came in and took over and hasn't 
stopped since. We now have new refrigeration, which we had 
to have before we could even go for an alcoholic license, 
[laughs] That's a free phrase, "alcoholic license." 

Riess: Liquor license. 

Williams: Club license is what it's called. 


Riess: In the history, Mr. Abbo was a believer in offering a little 

something before dinner. I think that was all right if it was 
being given to the members; it just couldn't be sold without 
a license. How has liquor been handled since then? 

Williams: The same way. When we've had luncheons , new members' luncheons, 
you'll find that champagne is served at 11:30 a.m., or even 
earlier, as the ladies get here. That is not part of the price 
of the meal, because we cannot sell it. I've considered it 
simply part of our getting to know one another, the warmth and 
enjoyment of the occasion. Heretofore I think it had always 
been sherry, but I find sherry very heavy. That's the way it's 
been handled. Of course anyone could bring a bottle of wine 
in to serve to luncheon guests. We will be serving only wine 
and beer. We have no desire to have a bar; I don't even want 
to be part of that. I don't see where it could be appropriately 

Riess: Wine and beer would be just fine. 

Williams: Well, this club license includes hard liquor also, but that 

will be ideal because caterers sometimes require that, or parties 
for some-such wish to have it. So now we have to get involved 
with wine distributors and beer distributors and so forth. I 
think what we'll do is have a house wine and sell by carafe 
or individual glass, and probably have champagne available to 
anyone who'd like Mrs. Gordon-Britland was having a group today 
and a bottle of champagne might have been a very pleasant sort 
of thing. So that's what we have in mind. But I had no idea 
we'd have this billboard [public notice of intention to sell 
liquor] on the front door [laughs]. 

Riess: Do you expect anyone to object? 

Williams: I've had no objections. I've heard nothing. In fact, the day 
we were putting it up people were coming into lunch and said, 
"Ah, we can have a glass of wine in thirty days." Something 
of this sort. 

Riess: Is the license an expensive outlay? 
Williams: No, a club license is only $336 dollars. 

You have no idea what that experience was like. You think 
about bureaucracies around here, you should go down there some 
time and see what you're up against, [laughs] "Would you 'girls' 
come over here and sit down," that sort of thing. 


[laughing] Girls! Golly! 


8) The Gardens 










You mentioned excavations that have to be done because of this 
long-term problem of flooding and damage and we talked a bit 
about the gardener and that kind of responsibility I can see 
why anyone who wasn't retired couldn't take over the presidency. 
What are you going to try to do about that? 

Well, I had considered, and in fact I talked to Josephine Miles 
about a search committee, a group of people, maybe five or six, 
who could just go through campus and see what they could find 
in the way of a replacement. 

There's no one on the board currently? 

Well, Lotte Dadone is retired and she has accepted the vice- 
presidency. Tom Rosenmeyer was vice president and has since 
retired from the board, as I had mentioned. It could be that 
Lotte might take that on, but I do know that they're considering 
buying some property up Benicia way, and that's quite a little 
distance to come. But again, if the place is running the way 
it should, then it might not require this kind of time. 

Why don't you want to do it forever? 

Now that you've got it working beautifully, don't you want to 
enjoy the pleasure? 

Well, I do, but I have this thing about the day I'll hear somebody 
say, "Why doesn't she give somebody else a chance?" 

Why don't you say a few things about the garden, 
something of interest to you. 

I know it's 

There are many members who at one time or another in their lives 
donate or leave money to the club, or artifacts of some value 
or great value witness the Oriental rugs. We've almost completed 
the restoration of the club (or rehabilitated it, however one 
wishes to term it), so that when checks for memorials to certain 
individuals came in I'd think, "I don't really want to put that 
money into saying Mrs. So-and-So recovered the sofa in the name 
of So-and-So." It didn't seem appropriate. 

In looking about and also kind of looking out to see 
where we could get cut flowers, which I think are part of the 
club, again we go to timing. At that moment Joanna Kaufmann 


Williams: became landscape architect, and she's very much into this sort 
of thing and there was an immediate rapport and it all opened 
up into some beautiful future plans. It occurred to me at lunch 
one day that that [memorial garden gifts] would be an ideal 
way to do it, because most people I know love gardens. Maybe 
they're not gardeners themselves, but it's a living sort of 

I put it in the next newsletter that after having checked 
with a few people about it that we thought this is what we would 
do. And it's been received with great enthusiasm, really, because 
I think there are lots of charities to give to but, well, people 
who really love this club feel very close to it. They like 
to have that sense of still being active, of doing something 
for the club and in the name of a friend. So the garden has 
been quite successful. 

Our new rose garden almost every other day there can be 
a bouquet out of that. That's just the beginning now. Eventually 
we will have pictures and names of donors and so on, and I think 
we can just kind of keep going at it. And did I tell you about 
the two crab apple trees that were planted that were individual 

Riess: No. How will the white flower garden enter into this? 

Williams: There are lots of whites, with the white agapanthus and the 
white delphiniums and foxgloves and so forth up in the east 
corner. The semi-circle in the front will be really very formal. 
The Japanese anemones will be transplanted around because they 
really are so delightful and useful. 

The change will start where the ivy is, because that's 
really taken over. The Japanese magnolias need to have some 
thing less high and weedy around them because they're so handsome 
in themselves. But all the ferns will remain as they are because 
they're used by campus classes. Apparently this is the only 
place where some of them appear. We will ?.gain use the white 
campanula; over where the ivy is the campanula will be planted 
to drop over the walls. The plans are downstairs, so I can 
show them to you if you'd like. 

Riess: Why do you have such an excellent collection of ferns? Did 
old members do that? 

Williams: I have a feeling that much of this garden was planted when Ben, 

the gardener, would see an empty spot and he'd bring us something 
that was to be thrown out or pulled up. 


Riess: He also works at University House, or used to? 

Williams: Right, yes. I guess they must all have access to something 

there, because for a long time he planted little petunias here 
in the front that he'd get from somewhere, which was much 
appreciated. I suspect that's how the ferns came. And then, 
you know, lots of things are planted by birds and the wind, 
lots of things. I can't say really. But it will be handsome 
when it's done. 

The hedge you may have noticed is really quite in need 
of trimming, but we're letting it get higher than the automobiles 
so that it will block that out. I also have this strange feeling 
that hedges don't have to go downhill; they don't need to follow 
the contour of the land but can go straight across. So this 
is what we're doing. Then on the east side all that parking 
up there won't be visible from the dining room. It'll take 
a little while, but by degrees it's coming nicely. We hope 
to add more azaleas and rhododendron in the rear garden. I'd 
like to see the club reach a point with its garden that cut 
flowers could come all year round from our own garden. 

Riess: Who cuts the flowers? 

Williams: It's kind of a joint affair. When I come in and there's been 
absolutely no free time for anyone to do it, then I do it. 
Mrs. Waldburger is now back from her extended vacation and so 
she did it this week and it hasn't been necessary for me to 
take it on. Evelyn Nichols enjoys it too, and I think that's 
a nice break for them. You know they're here in the club all 
day long: they eat lunch here. 

Riess: I would think being allowed to go out and pick a flower would 
be a godsend. 

Williams: Exactly. I know I've said, "At lunchtime, why don't you go 
somewhere else?" Two of them went to the Men's Faculty Club 
for luncheon one day and came back and said, "Thank you very 
much, but no thank you." Lunch is included in salaries for 
these people, so there really is another benefit as it is 
included for students. 

Riess: Yours is not a salaried position is it? 

Williams: No, no. Though the board said that I should have gas mileage 
and so forth. But I've never felt that way. It's really very 
pleasant and I enjoy it. I finally agreed to it, but I interpret 


Williams: it this way: if I'm working here, as I will be all of this 

week, then the club can pick up my luncheon check, that's fine. 
But if I'm socializing, then that's my affair. So I'm the one 
who makes the differentiation. That's why when Betsy asked 
me what I was doing today I said, "Working!" [laughs] 

I mean, how do you figure things like that? And I do so 
much at home on the telephone. And it is minor in a way. 
Someone said, "Well, your telephone." I thought, what percentage 
would you take off, how would you work this out? I don't find 
that necessary. 

Riess: Your taste and your thoughts about the hedge and how things 
should look, I think it is difficult to hand that on to the 
next president or to figure out a way to make it in perpetuity. 

Williams: I don't think you can, I don't think so. A woman of Lotte's 
calibre will carry it on there's no question but if there 
is somebody who's working full-time and can't give it the 
attention, and then the staff changes, then you could have 
problems again. 

Riess: It might be good to have some of those committees stronger. 
Is there a garden committee? 

Williams: No. I've hesitated about that. Joanna is a professional and 

she's a club member also. It took us a couple of meetings before 
she realized that I did know what a flower was. So I can't 
think it would be very good to have people bringing plants down 
or suggesting things to her. Though I must say we're freer 
about that because we are paying for this now. The university 
can't at this point. And I'd much rather that they pay for 
the excavation work which they will have to do and pay for, 
and which has to be done, than the garden. I mean, I don't 
care a bit about finding the rocks that go under those trenches. 

Riess: What is the arrangement? 

Williams: Well, you see part of the agreement with the Regents is that 

they take care of the exterior, the grounds and gardens. Now, 
nobody had looked at this garden in, oh, I suppose, ten or 
fifteen years maybe. I talked to [Fred] Warnke about it and 
he came up and I was telling him things that I thought should 
be done. You see, we do have weddings here and they love to 
use the deck and the brick terrace, and if it's nothing but 
weeds, even though they're mowed, it's not a good idea. 


Williams: How we got into it is that Mr. [Ari] Inouye who was the campus 
architect and who is absolutely a marvelous man, had retired, 
and Joanna had recently graduated, maybe two or three years 
ago, from landscape architecture here. She came up and we talked 
and she was so enthusiastic. She's a live-wire and a beautiful 
woman . 

She came back with this handsome plan, but it was really 
within reason. It wasn't a great fountain and all that sort 
of thing. In fact, we're following it. They did the rose garden, 
and I guess the university did pay for that the labor and the 
plants and the removal of two trees that we were always afraid 
were going to fall over onto somebody, they'd been there so 
many years. Then, that's when the freeze was announced, that 
they could spend no more money until further notice. That's 
when I began to think about this and that's when the whole thing 
worked out with the memorials and so forth. 

Riess: So, you can have her services, but as far as materials and labor 

Williams: Unless there's a turnabout and the university can see its way 
clear to providing some of these things, but really I find no 
difficulty in helping the university out. 

9) Club Finances 





Do you feel free to get money from outside sources? Can you 
work that way, or does your money have to come in through the 
development office? 

We don't get money from anywhere except the members. 

If you wanted to develop your garden you might very well look 
to a potential outside donor and make a plea, say,' "We feel 
that you're someone who could appreciate this space like we 
do and we'd like to, etcetera." 

That's not my style at all. I can't see any need for it in 
the first place, I really can't. We can only develop this to 
such a degree. There are those who find it handier to pick 
up plants here than they might at a nursery. 


I hope our readers will understand what you've just 


Williams: Well, we had a very handsome ceramic pot good-looking, not 
of great value but it was a lovely soft green and it was 
planted with a lovely white tree azalea, and the first football 
game last season it disappeared from the entry. 

Riess: So that restrains your ardor. 

Williams: Oh absolutely! But then the other thing is that there is just 
so much money that the club can absorb before it is seen as 
a profit-making operation. 

What we consider which is important is the maintenance 
of the club. Salaries are very important in my estimation. 
If people are not rewarded for what they are doing everyone 
who works here is gung ho and all in favor of the club there's 
something wrong with the management. So we've got places to 
put any profit. 

It's not possible to get an answer from the IRS as to how 
much money a non-profit organization can have before it hits 
the danger point. I have to be very careful that we are in 
the right investment areas, which are treasury bonds, government 
backed, there's no question. I'd like to see us reach a nice, 
comfortable point. I don't even know what the figure would 
be so that we have a nice, tidy backlog. We have one now but 
I think it could be more. 

Riess: Who is in charge of those investments? 

Williams: The board. 

Riess: You come to the board with recommendations? 

Williams: Yes. I try very hard at board meetings, as Mary Ann said, not 
to state my own opinions. But I'm afraid everything I say or 
think shows on my face, so I'm not awfully successful at that. 
There are enough very shrewd women on the board, let alone the 
men, so that th^ investments are well-considered. 

Riess: So that's part of the monthly meetings, talking about the 

Williams: Yes, or where they are and so forth and so on. 

Riess: There was a time, back in the sixties, when fund raising was 

a responsibility, tea parties and minor fund raising. I wondered 
whether there were some restrictions on the club's freedom to 
go and look for funds. 


Williams: I don't know whether there would be restrictions, that we'd 

have to go through the Development Office and so on. Actually, 
I think the best fund raising is a good dining room. 

What has grown and again we come back to the dining room 
and the general atmosphere of the club there are groups in 
University Hall that will only meet here. The Chancellor's 
Office will only meet here. We try very hard to restrict the 
lounge to I'd like to reach the point where we don't serve 
luncheon in there at all. The rugs, everything, show the effect. 
And yet there are groups of forty or so that just have to meet 
there. So, what is there to be done? 

But that kind of thing, departmental meetings yes, I think 
it's increased. I know it's the food, because they stay here 
for lunch, they don't break the meeting and go somewhere else. 

Riess: They pay a fee to use it for a meeting? 

Williams: Yes, they pay a fee if it's only a meeting. If they're having 
lunch here then that's another story. And Maxine makes that 
determination because there are many ins and outs: do we serve 
coffee? Do they want sweet rolls? Oh, it gets very involved. 

10. Future Plans 

Riess: Do you think that the club will expand its physical facilities 

Williams: Oh, I don't know about "ever." 

Riess: Is there a master plan for the club to burst through one of 
the walls? 

Williams: No. Actually, I think it's very manageable the way it is. 

So often with expansion it leads to disaster. We're expanding 
our breakfast service. It's been a continental breakfast and 
then toast is available and fruit maybe I guess not even that 
much. But the continental breakfast is included in the room 
rate. Now we're going to have a chef in the kicchen, and dining 
room service. There will be fruits in season, all kinds of 
cereals, breads, hot breads and so on. 

Riess: From your kitchen or would that be from Neldam's? 


Williams: No, our kitchen. That's another point that I want to reach, 

where the desserts are all made here. I don't see any reason 

why not. The place is not that big. That's why I think it 
can be just a jewel and stay the size it is. 

Then also, I think it would be fun to try and open that 
dining room breakfast to members. 

Riess: I think that morning breakfast meetings would also be very 
attractive to a lot of the departments. 

Williams: I think so. Here we go again. 

Riess: The ideas I'm sure just sort of gallop off on their own. 

Williams: They do. And it's interesting: mention it to somebody and 
they take it off in another direction. 

Riess: Can you make any interesting comparisons to the kind of volunteer 
work you were doing up until 1956, working with women then, 
and working in this situation with the women now? 

Williams: It's very different, from the standpoint that all of us were 
homemakers, no one worked, it was all volunteer work we were 
doing. Our children all knew one another, all went to the same 
schools. It was a closed society really, and eventually quite 
dull, though we didn't realize it, I don't suppose, until on 
stepping out that made a difference. 

Riess: It was dull because the same characters 

Williams: The characters never changed. And if someone introduced some 
thing and it wasn't generally accepted, then it was in a sense 
taboo. That's why I found the university such marvelous joy, 
because of the youthfulness around and the stimulating thinking 
and the changes. Oh yes, it was very different. But at least 
to me in its time it had its own value certainly. Another life 
however; I look back and it looks very different. 

Riess: Why did you think we should have an oral history of the Women's 
Faculty Club? 

Williams: [laughs] Well, simply because so often this sort of thing is 
let go too long and those that have that information are gone 
and there is just no way to retrieve it. 


Was there some impetus in the last year and a half? 


Williams: The more that I talked to people, and then my own family 

experience, brought me to this realization early on and then 
it was simply applied here. And then of course this was almost 
more interesting because of the varied personalities involved. 
I think it's very important, and I think it should be picked 
up again in is ten years too soon, or fifteen? 

Riess: What else could possibly happen, President Williams? [laughs] 
Williams: You don't think so? I think lots more could happen. 
Riess: I feel that the club's really been through everything. 

Williams: Oh, no. One of my dreams, and it may be that that might be 
the one thing that would let me continue on, is that I think 
we should serve dinner eventually. I had hoped to start that 
this fall, but in talking to Julienne and Maxine I realized 
that we hadn't started to advertise for a chef in time, because 
there has to be an assistant chef at least. Julienne will 
surely be in charge of the kitchen still, but we would need 
someone to come in at two or three o'clock if dinner's served 
from five to seven o'clock. We have to have dishwashers, we 
have to have waiters. You know the whole rigamarole is repeated 
again, really. We're just not quite ready for that yet. I 
think the market's out here, I really do. 

We have to be really innovative about it because it will 
only duplicate lunch otherwise. We want to avoid that, and 
we won't have a salad bar. But then there's the question, 
"Do you have any choice of entrees?" Do you perhaps have two? 
Do you include soup and salad or do you have it all a la carte? 
Oh, the questions! 

What really started this in my head was the residents. 
In the wintertime and you know we really have a short space 
of dark time here, when it's dark from five o'clock on, but 
still there's no place for these people to go. We have 
kitchens, one on the second floor and one on the third floor, 
for maybe making toast, or heating a little soup or something, 
but not for cooking. 

Most residents have cookies or this or that in their rooms, 
or they go over to the Men's Faculty Club. I think most 
residents here eat lunch, an entree, and then dinner is rather 
slim. I know it would be a convenience to them to have the 
dining room open. So, do we open it only to residents, do we 
open it only to members? All of these things have to be 


Riess: I can imagine how some of the people who've gone through the 
history of closing the dining room might begin to blanch at 
the very idea. 

Williams: Actually, I didn't have any negative responses. I talked to 

people around and about in the club membership and heard, "Oh, 
that would be marvelous." There are lots cf women who do not 
want to be out at night, so we could be here at five, have a 
pleasant dinner, and still get home at a decent hour. 

Also, thinking in terms of Hertz Hall and Zellerbach, 
people could have dinner here and then stroll down. They might 
park down there and walk up, so then their cars are there. 
There are all kinds of possibilities for this. 

Riess: Why didn't it support itself in the past? 

Williams: Because it was not good enough. That's about all I can say. 
Also, the membership was much less. 

Riess: But primarily you would say it was not good enough. 

Williams: I would say so. And I shouldn't, because I didn't experience 
the times when the people were all here who were doing such 
fancy things, at least the ones I've hearc 1 about. 

Riess: That would tempt you to stay on. 

Williams: I'd feel terribly responsible. As I told Julienne, I wouldn't 
be averse at all that if it didn't go over, except for the 
residents, that we would just close it to members and have it 
for residents only. Then I realized she's quite young and 
she's only been here since January and that she just couldn't 
face it if it didn't go. So we have to have the right assistant 
chef. We could start it the first of the year. I don't know. 
This may all develop and I'm willing to wait and see what 

Riess: Have you brought it up before the board? 

Williams: Oh, yes! They've known you see this board, we probably operate 
very differently from most boards, and they really know every 
thing that goes on here. Sometimes they'll say, or John will 


Williams: say, "I thought we were just policy setting advisors," and 

I'll say, "John, we have got to know what's going on, that's 
all." We've had some pilferage problems and so on and they 
have got to know what's going on here; I have got to use their 
heads too, which I don't think is unreasonable. 

Transcriber John McPherson 
Final Typist: Catherine Winter 


APPENDICES Women's Faculty Club 

A. Building Committee of the Women's Faculty Club, Inc., $50,000 bond 

issue, dated December 15, 1921, showing original design for club building. 255 

B. A copy of Stock Certificate No. 2, issued to Edith M. Coulter. 258 

C. Handwritten reminiscences of the club, by G. Gordon-Britland. 259 

D. Interview history from A Life in Community Service, oral history of Emma 
Moffat Mclaughlin, Regional Oral History Office, 1968. 263 

E. The Faculty Clubs, and Faculty Wives, from The Centennial Record of the 
University of California. 1968. 275 

F. Florence Minard's role in saving the club building, Mills Quarterly, Mills 
College, August 1981. 277 

G. A letter to F. Minard from H.J. Mardis, building inspector for the City 

of Berkeley, December 14, 1970. 278 

H. A letter to club members from L. Czarnowski, M. Dornin, F. Minard, H. 
Nicewonger, E. Scott, and J. Smith, January 5, 1971. 281 

I. A letter to club members from M.L. Norrie, February 23, 1971. 284 

J. Information pertaining to the 1971 gift to the University of California, 
Berkeley by the Walter Haas family, with attached Faculty Club proposals, 
October 21, 1971. 287 

K. Proposed principles for the Joint Operation of The Faculty Clubs, sent 

to Women's Faculty Club members, June 3, 1971. 293 

L. A letter to club members, from M.L. Norrie, July 6, 1972. 295 

M. Women's Faculty Club Review Committee, progress report to the Board of 
Directors, December 6, 1972. 297 

N. Resolution of Board of Directors of the Women's Faculty Club, September 

15, 1976. 300 

0. Statement against the proposed merger, September 28, 1976. 301 

P. "A Financial Warning," to club members, from J. Smith, November 11, 

1976. 302 


$50,000 ISSUE 


Building Committee of The Women's Faculty Club, Inc. 


6% Serial Gold Bonds ' 

Dated December 15, 1921 Due Serially as Shown Below * 

Non-callable and non-convertible. Coupon Bonds of $1000 and $500 denomination, interest payable 
semi-annually on June 15 and December 15 at the office of ' 

The Oakland Bank (formerly The Oakland Bank of Savings) ' 

Bonds on sale at the 


Northeast Corner Center Street and Shattuck Avenue, Berkeley 


$ 5,000.00 December 15, 1926 $ 9,500.00 December 15, 1936 

$ 7,500.00 December 15, 1931 $13,000.00 December 15, 1941 

$15,000.00 December 15, 1946 



MARY F. PATTERSON, Vice-President NELLA J. MARTIN, Secretary 





SARAH R. DAVIS, Secretary-Treasurer HELEN W. FANCHER 





The Women's Faculty Club was organized September 29, 1919. Its active mi 
bership averaging ninety-five persons comprises only women holding Rege 
appointments at the University of California. An equal number of associate m 
bers is chosen from women throughout the state who have made some defi; 
contribution in professional, educational, social, literary, or artistic fields. 

THE BUILDING The Building Committee was nominated by the Board of Directors of 

COMMITTEE OF Women's Faculty Club and elected by the club. It was incorporated September 

THE WOMEN'S 1920, under the laws of the State of California as a non-profit making corpora' 

FACULTY CLUB, Inc. "whose sole function shall be to build and equip a club house for the sole purp 

of selling this club house to the Women's Faculty Club at cost or less than c 
and without any profit whatsoever to this corporation." It has a paid-up memi 
ship subscription amounting to $10,000.00. Membership in the Women's Faci 
Club carries with it membership in the Building Committee of the Women's Faci 
Club, Inc., by virtue of one share of stock purchased as initiation fee. 







The proceeds of these bonds, which are the direct obligation of the Build 
Committee, will be used to construct and equip a club house to provide lh 
accommodations and a social meeting place for the women of the faculty of 
State University and for the associate members of the club. 

The Regents of the University have granted to the Women's Faculty Club, r 
free, a beautiful and picturesque site on the campus, near the College Ave 
entrance, within one block of the street car lines, and within three minutes wall 
the principal college buildings. A plan of the lot and its location is shown on 

The plan of the house, as the accompanying sketch indicates, present; 
three-story building with a high basement, to be carried out in stucco. The lo 
floor will contain dining rooms, kitchen, storage rooms, and a janitor's apartm 
The first floor is to be devoted to social quarters for the club, namely: lounge, In 
room, writing room, library, committee room. It will also include dressing re 
facilities, and an apartment for the manager. The second and third floors comp 
twenty-six living rooms with an adequate number of bathrooms, shower baths 
sleeping porches. Service rooms for general use are to be installed on each fl 
The dining room will offer restaurant facilities and is to be operated on a financi 
independent basis. 

The land upon which the club house is situated remains the property of 
University. The property of the Women's Faculty Club and its Building Commi 
consists in the club house and its equipment. Interest and sinking fund will 
derived from rentals of living quarters and dining room, and from club dues 
fees. Adequate insurance against fire will be provided. 

The Women's Faculty Club is pledged to purchase from its Building Commi' 

"the club house and its equipment on a deferred payment purchase plan for a s 

not to exceed the actual cost of the club house and its equipment." Until < 

purchase is consummated the Women's Faculty Club agrees to lease the club ho 

ffrom the Building Committee for an amount equivalent to the semi-annual p 

I ments to be devoted to the sinking fund and interest. This amount will ai 

matically reduce the purchase price of the club house by so much each year, so t 

when the bonded indebtedness is amortized the club will be in complete owners 

of the club house. 

The Women's Faculty Club will, in turn, sublet the living quarters to 

Such a club house on the University campus will provide urgently needed he 
ing facilities for the women of the faculty. The unique position occupied by 
Women's Faculty Club as a social club attached to the State University assures 
of a permanent and increasing membership. 





In order to provide a sinking fund for the retirement of the bonds, the Building 
Committee of the Women's Faculty Club, Inc., has agreed to set aside semi-annually 
a sum of $2000, applicable to principal and interest, said sum to be derived from 
rental paid by the Women's Faculty Club as aforesaid. 

The following is a conservative estimate of the yearly earnings and expenditures 
of the club house as planned. 


Club service (exclusive of 

dining room) $3,000 00 

Lights 600.00 

Water 350.00 

Telephone 500.00 

General Expenses (laun 
dry, etc.) 1,400.00 

Depreciation 1,000.00 

Insurance and Taxes 260.00 

Club expenses 700.00 


Rentals, living quarters 

and dining room $10,920.00 

Dues and fees , 2,000.00 




NET INCOME, $5,110.00 

fo*. .wonn:/ MCUITY ciu 


'. Oakland Bank (fonrerly The Oakland Bank of Savings), Twelfth Street and Broadway, Oakland California, 
: as paying agent in all transactions connected with these bonds. The interest on the bonds will be payable semi- 
y on June IS and December 15, at the main office of The Oakland Bank. 

ic bonds are on sale at the BERKELEY COMMERCIAL AND SAVINGS BANK, northeast corner 
iter Street and Shattuck Avenue. Berkeley. California. 


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Emma Moffat McLaughlin, A Life in Community Service, an oral 
history conducted 1965, 1968, Regional Oral History Office, 
University of California, Berkeley, 1970, pp. x-xxi of the 
Interview History, by interviewer Helene Maxwell Brewer. 


I first met Mrs. McLaughlin in 1963, when she was in Berkeley on 
what she called her annual vacation -- auditing courses in world 
affairs at the University of California Summer Session. Although 
we shared several old friends in common, I am sure we would not 
have met on that sunny summer afternoon had not Margaret Murdock 
of the Women's Faculty Club virtually forced me to speak to her. 

Of course, I had long heard of her, and at the Women's Faculty Club 
I was frequently told of the San Francisco civic leader who almost 
every summer registered for classes and assiduously read the 
assignments. As she later observed to me, if one lumped together 
the summers she had spent at Mills College and at Berkeley, one would 
see that she had the longest sustained record of summer schooling of 
any University of California alumna. Compared with that extended 
beadroll, my own annual visits were too trifling to mention, for I 
had been returning to my native state only since 1957. I always 
stayed at the Women's Faculty Club and went every day to the Bancroft 
Library, where I read in the collections connected with the Progressive 
period and Progressive Party in California. Every summer Miss 
Murdock regularly urged me to introduce myself to Mrs. McLaughlin; 
she was certain that if Mrs. McLaughlin would talk to me, my research 
would be notably enriched. 

But I never followed this sensible suggestion because (and I am 
ashamed to admit it) I was intimidated. I remember particularly 

*Margaret Murdock: daughter of Charles Murdock, the San Francisco 
printer, man of letters, reformer, and staunch Unitarian. Miss Murdock 
graduated from the University and for m^ny years has been associated 
with the University in various capacities. 


the occasions when Mrs. McLaughlin came for dinner with her old 
friend Dean Mary B. Davidson (always "Bobby" when Mrs. McLaughlin 
spoke of her) . She walked into the dining room with a rather slow 
and measured step and while she traversed the room and after she was 
seated, half the dining room seemed to leave its collective seat and 
dart over to speak to her. Invariably several of the University's 
ancient and honorable arrived for their own dinners, and they too 
seemed to find it necessary to circle her table and stop and chat 
before they sat down to their own soup. There was always a great 
deal of laughter and banter and conversation over in that corner. 
I used to wonder if she didn't leave the table in a state of ravenous 
hunger because she had to stop and talk with so many old friends. 

On the other hand, if one crossed her path when she was by herself, 
she could seem remote and stern to those she didn't know -- partly, 
perhaps, because she was abstracted and partly because of her habit 
of unsmilingly looking over her glasses to see who was coming. This 
long, hard look over the glasses, with the head down and those 
clear blue eyes seeming to look through me -- this I found both 
unsettling and intimidating; and I was greatly relieved to learn that 
other friends had been similarly affected. How mistaken we all were! 

So my avoidance of Mrs. McLaughlin went on for about three years, until 
one morning in August 1963 when Miss Murdock cornered me: Mrs. McLaughl 
she reported, would be staying at the Women's Faculty Club; she (Miss 
Murdock) had previously asked me to go and see Mrs. McLaughlin, and I 
had not done so; now she (Miss Murdock) had told Mrs. McLaughlin that 
I wanted to ask her some questions; Mrs. McLaughlin doubted that she 
had much helpful information, but I must go and introduce myself. In 
a hangdog way I promised to do so, but I had an inkling that I was not 
going to make a point of pounding on Mrs. McLaughlin 's door. 

About a week later I came back to the Women's Faculty Club for a very 
late lunch -- one of those scattered, last minute forays where one 
dashed into the empty dining room and, while the student help cleared 
the other tables, gobbled as fast as possible a plateful of assorted 
leftovers. As I was standing at the serving table contemplating the 
tepid possibilities a second latecomer walked in, picked up a plate, am 
silently stood behind me; and I, hastily looking over my shoulder, 
nearly dropped my butter plate as I saw that I was hedged in by strawbei 
jello salad on one side and Mrs. McLaughlin on the other and that in 
that constricted space I could not cravenly scuttle away. Undoubtedly 
I stuttered some inconsequential inanity because Mrs. McLaughlin looked 
at me not through her glasses but over them, at the same time saying, 
"Yesss?" and giving an impression of such remarkable sterness that I 
squeaked, "Margaret Murdock said that I should ask you . . . ." This 
trailing-away sentence I never did complete because Mrs. McLaughlin 
smiled, looked at me through her glasses (oh, the dramatic change!) 
and with charming directness replied, "So it's you! Why of course! 
I've been expecting you. I don't know how much I can help because at 
that time I didn't know many of those people. But let's talk." 



So we sat down and as we ate we talked, and after a while the manager 
asked us if we'd mind moving because the dining room had been closed. 
We moved out to the porch where the sunshine was pouring down, and 
there we sat looking down on the "Old Berkeley" garden -- the fuchsias, 
the acanthus, the roses in profusion, the green lawn, the hedge, and 
the scent of bay leaves, somehow mixed up in all of it while Mrs. 
McLaughlin reminisced about her growing up in San Francisco and Nevada 
in the "80s and '90s, and about William Kent and Hiram Johnson and 
briefly about Chester Rowell, each of us deeply absorbed. Suddenly 
we heard the chimes striking four and she exclaimed that she was forty 
minutes late for an engagement. When we said a rushed goodbye she 
remarked that it was unlikely that she would be back the next day, but 
we would surely meet later in the week. 

The next morning I was in the breakfastroom foggily contemplating the 
San Francisco Chronicle with one eye and a cup of coffee with the other, 
when in walked Mrs. McLaughlin. She had eaten breakfast (I learned 
that she always woke up at six o'clock and listened to a summary 
world events on her radio) but she wanted to tell me that after she 
had left me on the previous afternoon she had remembered something she 
wanted to tell me and that she would come back to the Club for lunch 
that noon. By the next morning I had permanently changed my breakfast 
hour from the last to the first shift. Thus began a habit that 
flourished over the next few summers -- that is, of meeting for meals 
when she was free. In 1965 we moved our Thursday lunches to the patio 
of the Golden Bear so that Mrs. McLaughlin could listen to the student 
speakers in Sproul Plaza. She usually disagreed but she felt that she 
should hear them. 

At first glance Mrs. McLaughlin seemed tall; actually, she was slightly 
shorter than I (five feet six inches). When I first met her she was, 
in her early 80s, slightly stooped and when she walked with her hands 
clasped behind her she had rather a contemplative appearance. I have 
already mentioned her steady walk -- steady in more ways than one so 
that she walked from one end of the campus almost to the other if 
the classes she audited were so placed. She had clear blue eyes that 
could turn hard blue if she happened to talk about something that 
displeased her, and I remember thinking how on the days when she was 
feeling well, the pinkness of her skin was unusual for anyone of her 
years -- that and her carefully dressed white hair and her rose-colored 
fingernails. Particularly in those first years of our friendship she 
seemed to emanate something like indestructable energy -- a misleading 
impression as I found out; for although she only occasionally spoke of 
her health she was not entirely well and in the next years she visibly 
grew frailer. But even when she was feeling her most miserable, an 
adamant quality asserted itself, conveying the impression that if 
she could help it, she would not give in. On two of these occasions I 
remember going down to Oakland to wait with her until the San Francisco 
bus came. My own feeling was that she shouldn't be alone on the bus, 
even from Oakland to the city; but she would have none of this and 
refused to let me go any farther as she climbed on that city-bound bus. 


Perhaps in part this impression of extraordinary energy that I have ju; 
mentioned resulted from her direct and emphatic manner of speaking, 
particularly about something or someone who aroused her indignation. 
Her outspoken indignation was one of her many beguiling qualities, 
although I shouldn't have thought so had I been the target of that 
articulate displeasure: "And I said to him, 'You can't do that! That 
not honest I '" 

For me Mrs. McLaughlin stood distinguished by the forcefulness of her 
convictions, by her honesty, by her kindness, and by her unvarnished 
detestation of double-talk and disingenuousness . It is only fair to 
observe that her forcefulness was not at all times universally admired, 

The obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle mentioned her serene 
beauty. Serene she could be; benevolent she could be, and wonderfully 
kind and ordered and succinct; but to mention these qualities alone anc 
to forget her wonderful ability for indignation is to oversimplify her : 
and thereby lose much of her complex magnetism and effectiveness. Not 
infrequently she used that explosive quality to create an unexpectedly 
comic effect, for she told a story unusually well at best with a 
sense of dramatic incident and a keen sense of timing. Her friends 
will remember her account of her last meeting with Garret McEnerney; 
or of the numerous tribulations when she presided over the luncheon foi 
Queen Elizabeth of the Belgians. Years later when she told me about 
it she concluded: "I came home, went into the kitchen, sat down, took 
off my shoes and said, 'I hate women. 1 " 

Another quality that I admired was her ability to make decisions and tc 
stick by them. This point of view she tersely summed up in a letter 
she sent me in 1965, when I was nominated as a Fulbright Visiting 
Lecturer to Japan but did not know if I could go. Mrs. McLaughlin 
wrote: "Now you must make a plan so that you can leave your problems. 

"I will say to you just what I said to a friend in a similarly difficu! 
choice -- 'Be convinced that your decision is right and be prepared to 
face any consequences.'" From her descriptions of some of her exper 
iences when she was active in San Francisco civic life, I am certain 
that when she felt she had to, she followed her own precept. 

By the time we met she was no longer driving that green Cadillac for 
which she was evidently famous and feared. In fact, a number of persoi 
have indicated to me that it was a great day for the general traffic 
safety of San Francisco, and for the equinimity of her friends when 
she relinquished the wheel of that fearsome automobile and relied on 
the Yellow Cab Company. From all reports she was a terrible driver. 
According to one reliable passenger she often ignored red lights and 
the restrictions of traffic laws, seeming not to care whether she was 
on the right or the left-hand side of the road or when U-turns might 
be made. A friend who survived one of these excursions still gasps an 
rolls her eyes when she describes a ride from 2200 College Avenue to 
Oakland, with Mrs. McLaughlin forcing the car forward regardless of 


red traffic signals, impeding automobiles, and hastily scattering 
pedestrians; this same passenger is not at all amused when I remark, 
"But Mrs. Mclaughlin was merely following her own injunction: 
'Be convinced that your decision is right and be prepared to face 
any consequences." 1 

No description would be complete without a mention of her enjoyment 
of people. I am not certain of all the components that comprised 
that quality, but I do know that to her friends she conveyed a quick 
responsiveness that made her friends, old and new, feel that they 
were individually and genuinely important to her. Frances Cahn, who 
went to Miss Burke *s School with Jean McLaughlin and who lived a few 
doors from 3575 Clay Street, remembers how when she was growing up, 
Mrs. McLaughlin would talk to her about her youthful problems, always 
giving those conversations the serious attention she gave to her own 
contemporaries . 

One way she made her friends, old and new, feel that they were each 
important to her was illustrated in her Christmas cards. I have no 
idea of how many she sent out, but my guess is that they numbered 
several hundred and many of them contained personal messages. Some 
times she wrote that at Christmas she liked to review the year, 
"counting my blessings"; then she explained why she was sending that 
particular card. Obviously, each of these messages was specially 
composed and I am certain that the young and the old who received 
these greetings and saw themselves catalogued as "blessings" must 
have felt distinguished and proud. 

When Mrs. McLaughlin stayed at the Women's Faculty Club in the 
summers she almost always wore a blue and white silk print dress or 
a dark silk of some kind; a white sweater; and, when she went out, a 
navy blue coat. This near-uniform was topped by a close-fitting, 
rimless black straw hat trimmed with blue velvet bows, the blue 
harmonizing with her eyes. One morning I unexpectedly met her as 
she was coming downstairs -- this time not carrying her notebook and 
not wearing her habitual classroom garb, wearing a toque composed of 
small, soft-reddish velvet and silk rosebuds and a fashionable 
looking silk print dress that matched the silk and velvet hat. 
"Oh," I blurted, "don't you look beautiful!" "No, I don't," she 
replied, "but I'm going to a luncheon in the city and I can't wear 
my college clothes to that . " I still smile when I think of Mrs. 
McLaughlin and her durable college clothes, contrasted with Mrs. 
McLaughlin in the soft reds and light blues I afterwards saw when she 
was home in San Francisco. 

Every summer -- I think it was in early August -- she left world 
affairs and returned to Clay Street for several days so that she 
could put up raspberry jam. This was an annual rite and Mrs. McLaughlin 
was openly and unabashedly proud of it, sometimes bringing a sample 
of the handiwork back to Berkeley, where it quickly disappeared. 



One of her greatest prides was the honorary doctorate she received 
from the University of California. She adored the University. She 
adored its achievements and its greatness. When she talked about it 
she conveyed her sense that she was talking about a living, breathing 
thing of grandeur; that during her lifetime she had seen it grow fron 
a small college into something almost universal -- a place whose 
magnitude transcended the limits of the state of California and 
reached out to enlighten and improve the world. I used to think 
that for her the University represented not only old friends and 
her inner life and growth, but that it also stood for the unpredic- 
tably numerous ways in which mankind could be improved. Several time 
when she told me about a University occasion -- Charter Day, for 
example, when she marched in the procession -- she added, "I didn't 
really feel like making the trip over here, but I put on my regiment; 
and marched and was glad I did." 

H.B.: "But if you didn't feel like it, why did you go?" 

Mrs. McLaughlin: (Opening her eyes wide) "Why? Why, it was my 

responsibility. They gave me this degree, you knov 

In the early time of our acquaintance our conversations were largely 
limited to the Progressive period and the development of the Progress 
Party in California. This was because I was writing about the turbul 
and somewhat abrasive Francis J. Heney, particularly about his politi 
fortunes and misfortunes after 1910. Although as she told me she hac 
been neither a Progressive nor politically active at this time, she 
had known many of the San Francisco group close to Hiram Johnson, 
particularly in the years of his governorship; and she recalled 
events with gusto, for she could tell a story vividly and with a 
marked sense of dramatic insight. What struck me forcefully that fii 
afternoon was her clear distinction between hearsay and what she hers 
knew at firsthand. When she was uncertain of a point, she told me; '<. 
she had an impressively clear sense of exactly what her part was in 
an undertaking, as against the parts played by her associates -- an 
ability sometimes lacking when one recollects the long-ago past. 

As our friendship grew she realized that she could trust me not to 
repeat details she told me in confidence; after that she often gave 
me what might be called "background briefings." These were really 
the highlights of her recollections, the social backgrounds, the edu 
cations, the families (particularly the wives), the personal eccp-.- 
tricities, the limitations, and often the hopes and frustrations of 
some of the men we discussed. Often I would bring back from the 
Bancroft Library a list of names of minor, hardworking men I could 
only briefly and unsatisfactorily identify. And although she would 
insist that she really knew very little about the Progressives of tb 
time, she would start to talk and out would come an anecdote or a 
connecting link that turned these men from names on a list into livi: 
persons . 



It was, however, Chester Rowell who cemented our friendship. Several 
of us were reading in t he Rowell Papers and Mrs. McLaughlin, who had 
immense regard for him, was delighted that his massive collection was 
at the Bancroft Library and available for research. I cannot estimate 
the number of hours she and I talked about him, his work, and his 
contributions to the life of his time. Of all the California Pro 
gressives, Rowell was the man for whom she felt the greatest sympathy 
and admiration. Her esteem was not primarily because of his career 
as a Progressive (an aspect of his life with which she was not 
particularly familiar) but because of their common interest in two 
vital subjects -- the University of California and the Institute of 
Pacific Relations. 

Mrs. McLaughlin often spoke of what she termed Rowell 's "quality of 
mind." "Of all the leading California Progressives," she said to 
me, "I think that Mr. Rowell was the most truly intellectual -- the 
one true intellectual." She admired his breadth of knowledge, his 
"international mindedness," and his devotion to the University. 
I cannot count the times she said, "Even during his lifetime few 
people had any idea of the extent to which Mr. Rowell watched over, 
worked for, and fought for the University. Its tradition of 
intellectual greatness owes a great deal to his concept of what he as 
a Regent should do. No one has any idea of the selfless way in which 
Mr. Rowell carried out his duties as Regent. His chief aim was to 
insure the greatness of the University." Also, since she had known 
him best when they were both members of the Institute of Pacific 
Relations, she liked to recall those years and his particular contri 

In addition she told me about her youthful life in California and 
Nevada; about going to Miss West's School; about her father's meat 
packing business; about how she and her sister crossed the Sierra on 
horseback; she spoke eloquently of Tahoe , then blue, uncrowded, and 
unspoiled, and this often led her to speak with deep feeling and 
sensitivity of some of the beautiful, out-of-the-way spots in the 
mountains -- spots that no longer exist; and these reminiscences of 
course led her to the imperative need for conservation. In logical 
sequence she talked about the development of her interest in community 
service in San Francisco, about the growth of the state, and about 
the unexpected problems that this growth had created. "Our beautiful 
state wasn't intended to be home for millions of people. The land 
here simply can't support them." 

She had a vivid sense of the continuity of California history. As 
she frequently reminded me, she had seen profound and basic changes; 
she had seen the state change from an agricultural to a largely 
industrial society, and the contrast between the past and present 
ways of life was a subject she often discussed. For me and I am sure 
for many others, she personified the continuity of California history. 

270 xvii 

Since we were both staying at the Women's Faculty Club, it was only 
natural that she should talk at length about her old and much loved 
friend, Lucy Ward Stebbins.* The Women's Faculty Club was in large 
part created and sustained by Dean Stebbins, and Mrs. McLaughlin 
zealously wanted to see the continuation (survival is a better word) 
of her friend's dream. However, she feared it was a lost cause; 
increasingly she pondered the place and function of a club for 
women faculty in a university that seemed less and less to believe 
in the need for women faculty. At the same time she was proud of 
the club's uniqueness. She enthusiastically asserted its value, and 
she often remarked that she hoped and prayed that her forebodings 
would prove wrong and that Miss Stebbin's vision would be revitalize! 
She was proud of her membership, but she felt that it was a beleague: 
institution that somehow had managed to survive in spite of great 
obstacles. And if this were the case, then a realistic estimate of 
the future was essential. "I do believe in women," she said to me, 
"but regardless of this belief, in no case should sentimentality taki 
the place of a clearsighted evaluation of the entire question." 

In 1964 Dr. Anne Low-Beer was staying at the Club, and the consequeiu 
was that our conversational horizons were markedly widened. Mrs. 
Low-Beer had for years been active in San Francisco affairs, includii 
a term as president of the League of Women Voters (1932-34) . Althouj 
much younger than Mrs. McLaughlin, the two had known a number of the 
same people and in some cases they were in emphatic and articulate 
disagreement. I have often sat open-mouthed while they argued their 
differences, neither one convincing the other but always leaving 
me with the feelings, "How kind of them to do this for me! It's the 
best possible seminar!" Also, Dr. Chiyoko Tokunaga, the geneticist, 
was then in residence and Mrs. McLaughlin got much pleasure in 
reminiscing with her about Japan as she had seen it before World 
War II. 

During that same summer, Mrs. McLaughlin characteristcally set about 
to enlarge as best she could my acquaintance among the rapidly 
dwindling group of men and women who had been active in San Francisc 
city affairs before 1914. This could not have been an easy task for 
her, I am sure. Typically, she never once gave me a hint of the tim 
she spent on this enterprise, but I am certain that considerable 
maneuvering was at times required. 

For example, she very much wanted me to meet one of Hiram Johnson s 
ancient and honorable advisers, a San Franciscan who had been a 
close adviser of the governor. In addition to being ancient and 
honorable, this gentleman was a busy and unapproachable lawyer. I 
am under the impression that he not only informed Mrs. McLaughlin 
that he did not wish to cooperate with her generous impulse, but 

*Lucy Ward Stebbins: Dean of Women at the University of Califc 

271 xviii 

that he volunteered that he had no patience with such damned 
foolishness. Characteristically, Mrs. McLaughlin was unimpressed 
by his attitude. "He has the reputation of being the rudest man in 
San Francisco," she said to me, "but I think I can persuade him." 
She did, too. 

On another occasion I mentioned a reformer I wanted to meet. She 
had excellent reasons for thinking that he was too mentally shaky 
for reliable discussion, but, having decided to give him a trial 
run without me, she invited him to dinner at 3575 Clay Street. At 
eight o'clock the next morning I was called to the telephone: 
"My dear, I'm so sorry that he won't be any help to you; he'll be 
no help at all. He arrived late for dinner and most of the evening 
thought I was Hiram Johnson's secretary and that Hiram Johnson 
wanted him to write a book!" 

In 1965 and 1966 she methodically undertook to discover what manner 
of summer visitor stayed at the Women's Faculty Club. She said to 
me, "I've known the old-timers at the Club for years, but the summer 
school group are a mystery to me, so I'll count on you to introduce 
me. I want to find out about their interests and how they feel 
about this Club." We were a miscellaneous lot, we summer birds of 
passage: one or two of us had come out to read at the Bancroft; 
two or three were teaching; three or four were feverishly writing 
theses; perhaps a dozen had come to Berkeley for refresher courses; 
several were emeriti; and one had evidently come to Berkeley in order 
to practice the piano. No matter what we were doing, we were either 
rooted in the past or unable to see very far beyond our own special 
projects -- that is, all of us except Mrs. McLaughlin who, in her 
mid-eighties, encompassed us all and talked to us all about our work, 
about the past, the present, and sometimes even the future. I was 
often reminded of a remark Dean Stebbins made to a friend of mine: 
"Some people are tasters for knowledge, and some people are 
thirsters for knowledge. Emma is a thirster." 

As I saw her in action, she was most interested and best informed in 
foreign affairs, particularly in Asia (she especially admired 
Professor Robert A. Scalapino and took his courses whenever she could) ; 
politics, national, state and local; history, especially California 
history; the condition of the public schools and public libraries; 
and public welfare. In 1964 Mrs. McLaughlin went on her first trip 
to Europe and after that I thought I detected a new dimension and a 
new interest, art. One day while she was enlarging her acquaintance 
among the summer visitors, I determined that as of the next morning, 
for twenty-four hours I would keep a brief memorandum, unbeknownst 
to her, of the various subjects Mrs. McLaughlin encountered and 
discussed at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. 

By the time I clattered down to breakfast on that designated day she 
was already there, reading the Chronicle and -- reinforced by the six 
a.m. radio -- commenting on the news as she turned the pages. A 



faculty member, a native Calif ornian at least sixteen years her 
junior, questioned her recollection of some detail about the shipping 
of walnuts, whereupon Mrs. McLaughlin produced such a series of facts 
and citations from both her own experience and that of persons of 
her immediate acquaintance that the incipient argument was immediate! 
disposed of, thoroughly quashed. She and I then talked a little 
about California politics and she reminisced about Senator Phelan 
and Montalvo. 

At lunch she and I talked about developments in the civil rights 
movement; this led into the subject of integration, which led us 
into a discussion about the Chinese in San Francisco. This led us 
briefly into Mainland China. At this point someone in educational 
testing sat down, and I soon was listening to an animated discussion 
about that. The tester departed, and Mrs. McLaughlin compared the 
campus planting in her undergraduate days with the landscaping of 
1964 (she obviously had been thinking of this as she had walked to 
her classes that morning) , and that led to a description of the 
problems Thomas Church had encountered and solved when he landscaped 
"my sister's small garden" at 3575 Clay Street. 

At dinner she carried on a lengthy discussion with two nuns from 
New Jersey on the techniques of teaching science in parochial schools 
Also, Dr. Catherine Callaghan (now at Ohio State) had just come in 
from the field, where she was collecting material for her Bodega- 
Miwok dictionary. Mrs. McLaughlin was always interested in her 
progress and in the cooperativeness of her informants, so they talked 
about Indians. In addition, Dr. Callaghan's favorite diversion was 
a matter of fascination, for she studied judo, and Mrs. McLaughlin 
was as much mystified by these techniques as she was interested in 
methods of collecting Indian words; her puzzlement about the former 
arose from the circumstance that occasionally Dr. Callaghan vigorousl 
practised sweeps and falls in a not-too-soundproof bedroom directly 
over Mrs. McLaughlin "s bemused head. 

Dr. Callaghan having left, Mrs. McLaughlin and I talked briefly 
about Anita Whitney and I can't remember in what order -- the 
late President Kennedy, Constance Baker Motley, Martin Luther King, 
and Malcolm X. * 

^Although she did not make these remarks on that particular day, 
I quote them because they are characteristic and I have heard them 
a number of times: 

"A pooling of ignorance is not an educational experience." 
(This epigram was made by an old friend.) 

"I have always had to reason from what I know." 

"Anyone my age has learned to live on different levels of 
emotions and spirit; so we go through life." 

273 xx 

I regret that I made notes like this for only one day. Other 
subjects on other days would have included the Southern Pacific in 
California politics, the growth of Los Angeles, James Rolph, Friend 
W. Richardson, FDR, Aurelia Henry Rinehart, the Institute of Public 
Relations, the Public Dance Hall Committee, the San Francisco 
Foundation, the war in Viet Nam -- and these are only a very few of 
the subjects we discussed. 

In keeping with these broad interests, Mrs. McLaughlin belonged to 
a luncheon group they called the "Yack Yacks." The function is 
self-explanatory. The members included Mrs. Adolph Deutsch, Mrs. 
Robert Sproul, Mrs. Mary Hutchinson, Mrs. R. H. Braden, but I 
can't remember the full list. They met -- once a month, I think -- 
for lunch, usually seriatim at a member's house. I have been told 
that Mrs. Mclaughlin's luncheons were the culinary points. 

Also, I wish I could work in something about the unforgettables , 
the amazing Georgianna Garden -- "George," as Mrs. McLaughlin called 
her -- and Emily Huntington. 

From September 1966 until July 1968 I was in Japan. From September 
1966 until April 22, 1968 (that is the date of the last letter she 
sent me), one of my most regular correspondents was Mrs. McLaughlin. 
Knowing that I wanted to keep up with American developments, she sent 
me newspaper clippings, magazine articles, and letters about recent 
events in California. How I relied on her assessments of political 
developments, of the state's political leaders, of the student 
protests at Berkeley, and her attitude toward the rising black 
protests! As soon as I saw the long, thickly filled envelopes, I 
knew that shortly I would be reading numerous clippings that she had 
torn from the San Francisco morning newspaper, and that in all 
probability she had written across one, "Be sure to read all of these." 
So informative were Mrs. McLaughlin "s bundles of clippings and her 
analyses of what was going on three thousand miles from Tokyo that 
visiting professors, wondering what was happening at home, often asked 
me, "Have you mail from San Francisco? What does your friend say 
about Berkeley?" 

Her analyses of events at Berkeley were particularly interesting to 
us, and I regret that some of her letters were "borrowed" and never 
returned. And her opinions got around, as when someone just arrived 
from Taiwan quoted Mrs. McLaughlin to me with impressive authenticity. 
(He was quoting the substance of a letter she had written to me.) 

Although from the earliest weeks of our acquaintance Mrs. McLaughlin 
and I had talked a great deal about the changing emphasis of the 
black movement in the United States, I felt that she was understandably 
not close to it in the way that she was to the student protest 
movement. She, of course, recognized the profound social seriousness 
of the situation and the need for a change in the black man's condition, 
but probably many blacks would have said that she oversimplified. 



As she saw it, one of the fundamental causes for the trouble was 
that "the avenues of communication of the affluent society are filled 
with urging everyone to have everything of luxury now and pay later. 
The younger Negro[es] [replied?] by rioting since they do not have 
opportunity for credit cards." Another time she stated her belief 
that most blacks wanted "peace and quiet [and] a chance for educatior 
and jobs." She regarded the black militants as hotheads, and she 
saw them as a grave social problem and was concerned. 

The student protests on the other hand, struck an immediately 
personal note. I have already remarked that when she was on campus 
in 1965 and 1966, we regularly went to the Golden Bear for Thursday 
lunch so that she could hear the student speakers. Sometimes she 
was horrified, but she sat through to the end. She considered them 
"these people who are determined to challenge the "establishment" 
and saw them as threats to the order and discipline of the trained 
intellect, destructive to the existence of the University she had 
lived with, grown with, officiated at, known intimately, and loved. 

On April 22, 1968, she sent me a note describing both the aftermath 
of Dr. King's assassination and the changes in the political 
situation in the United States. Almost casually she added, "I 
have a slight illness, but though slight it has incapacitated me, 
since it affected my entire anatomy." 

Previously she had written that we both must be sure to plan our 
respective summers so that we could have time in which to talk over 
the past two years; this remark I clung to and I made my plans 
accordingly. But it was not to be. As the ship on which I was 
homeward bound came into San Pedro Harbor, a tugboat brought out 
telegrams and special delivery letters for the passengers, and in 
one of them I learned that Mrs. Mclaughlin had died. 

30 January 1970 
Department of English 
Queen's College, 
City College of New York 
Flushing, New York 

Helene Maxwell Brewer 
Associate Professor of English 




230] 'ACUITY 

Faculty Clubi 

















Faculty Club* are organized on six campuses 
to provide social, cultural, and recreational 
programs for their members. The newest 
clubhouses will be those now under construc 
tion on the Davis and Santa Barbara cam 

At Berkeley, the Faculty Club traces its 
beginnings to a Dining Association for stu 
dents and faculty members formed in 1894. 
The association occupied a cottage originally 
built in 1873 to house women students. A 
mall room was set aside for members of the 

As students developed a preference for 
other eating arrangements, faculty patronage 
expanded. By 1901, several faculty members 
became seriously interested in forming an 
organization exclusively for the faculty. Pro 
fessors Irving Stringham, William D. Armes, 
Lincoln Hutchinson, Andrew Lawson, Win- 
throp John Van Leuven Osterhout, William 
A. Setchell, and Henry D. Waite were con 
stituted as a committee to draft suggestions. 
The committee reported in December, 1901, 
urging that a facility clubhouse be built ad 
joining the old Dining Association building. 
Twenty-two faculty members signed up for 
membership and a formal membership meet 
ing was held on March 10, 1902. Stringham 
was elected as the first president and the club 
was named: "Faculty Club of the University 
of California." It has never been the men's" 
faculty club officially, but the intent has 
been understood from the beginning and 
women are not admitted to the members' din 
ing room, lounge, and recreation areas except, 
on special occasions (this despite the fact 
that Phoebe Apperson Hearst, who took an 
early interest in the club and made it an 
object of her philanthropy, was made an 
honorary life member in 1902). The fireplace 
in the new clubhouse was first lighted at 
special ceremonies on September 18, 1902. 

The club's quarters were enlarged in 1903 
when bachelor members were permitted to 
add a two-story addition that would provide 
sleeping rooms upstairs and club rooms on 
the first floor. They were to be compensated 
with rent-free accommodations for ten years. 
This addition was made to the west of the 
original club. A southern addition was made 
in 1904 by Henry Morse Stephens and Mr. 
Jerome Landfield under terms similar to those 
arranged by other members the year before. 
In 1906, the rights of these residents were 
bought out by the club using funds acquired 
through a bank loan and the issuance of a 
$13,000 bond issue. The property and debts 
of the old Dining Association were obtained 
at the same time and improvements were 
made in the kitchen and dining facilities. A 
second bond issue for $20,000 in 1914, to 
gether with a $1,000 contribution by the 
Regents and money obtained through per 
sonal loans granted to members of the club's 
board of directors, made possible expansion 
of the dining rooms to the north, more bed 
rooms, a new office, a new kitchen, and living 

quarters for personnel. Still further expansion 
was made possible by the issuance of a 
$5,000 bond issue in 1925. 

In 1958, the Regents made both a con 
tribution and a loan to finance further im 
provement and expansion. This resulted in 
the building of more dining accommodations 
and meeting rooms, and a change in location 
for the office, lounge, and recreation facili 
ties. The club now has a modem kitchen, 
three large dining rooms, 13 smaller rooms 
for luncheon or dinner meetings, 22 rooms 
for transient guests, two lounges, a card 
room, and a billiard room. 

Through the years, the club has served not 
only as a center of informal faculty conversa 
tion and activities, but also has been the set 
ting for evenings of music and other cultural 
programs. The most memorable events are 
the annual Christinas dinners that feature a 
hearty dinner, good wine, singing led by a 
"monks choir" and special entertainment 
written and performed by members. 

In 1966, the club had 1,600 members. 

The Women's Faculty Club at Berkeley 
was organic in 1919 at a gathering of fac 
ulty women and administrators in the office 
of Miss Lucy W. Stebbins, dean of women. 
An initial membership of 66 was increased to 
100 by the nomination of associate members 
from among women donors to the University 
and professional women of the community. 

Early meetings were held in the Forestry 
Cottage and an office in Hearst Hall, with 
an annual "baaijuet" at ths TVT mH (Vvwn 
Club on Dwight Way. After the cottage was 
removed and Hearst Hall burned in 1922, a 
reserve fund of $10,000 was obtained by the 
sale of stock in the club to members, and by 
gift. The Regents were then asked for per 
mission to build a clubhouse on the campus. 
A rite was granted on Strawberry Creek east 
of Senior Men's Hall, a bond issue to finance 
the building was rapidly bought up, and the 
University architect John Galen Howard pre 
pared plans. The three-story, brown shingled 
building was completed and opened in Octo 
ber, 1923. The lower floor, intended for gen- 
erp.l use, contains a lounge, library, two din 
ing rooms, and a kitchen. The two upper 
floors provide private rooms for 25 residents. 

The club now has nearly 500 members in 
the categories of active, associate, and retired, 
formerly active. Its affairs are conducted by 
a board of seven directors, elected for two- 
year terms, so arranged that three director 
ships become vacant each year. A separate 
Building Committee of five members, elected 
in the same manner as the directors, finances 
and cares for such repairs or remodeling as 
become necessary. Both groups elect their 
own officers. 

The Centennial Record 


On most of the University campuses, faculty 
wives have formed organizations, often to 
gether with women staff and faculty members, 
for the purposes of fellowship and service to 
the University community. Their activities 
include social gatherings, meetings of special 
interest groups, and student services, such as 
foreign student aid, hospital visits, loan funds, 
and scholarships. 

Berkeley: For almost 60 years, faculty wives 
on the Berkeley campus have attended the 
Cottege Teas for the purpose of becoming 
better acquainted. The teas, which originated 
in 1907 under the sponsorship of Mrs. Ben 
jamin Ide Wheeler, have undergone some 
changes through the years, but their purpose 
remains the same. 

The first year, the College Teas met at the 
Men's Faculty Club. The 89 guests attending 
the first tea arrived on foot, by carriage, or by 
streetcar. The food was prepared by the 
members themselves. 

For the next 15 years, the first Hearst Gym 
nasium for Women was the meeting place for 
the organization. When this building was de 
stroyed by fire in 1922, the College Teas 
treasury was indemnified for its loss of samo 
vars, blue china, and embroidered napkins. 
This insurance money was turned over to the 
Regents of the University for a student loan 
fund which is still in existence and which has 
been augmented over the years. 

In the early years, fathers, brothers, sons, 
and husbands of subscribers were invited to 
the April tea. This practice was abandoned 
in favor of an evening reception to which hus 
bands were invited. The teas are now for 
women only. 

In 1922-23, the teas were held at the Town 
and Gown Club. They then moved to their 
present location, the Women's Faculty Club. 
The members now include women faculty as 
well as wives of faculty, administrative, and 
research personnel. The chancellor's wife is 
president, the University President's wife, 
honorary president. 

The University of California Section Club 
is nearly 40 years old. During its history, this 
organization of faculty women and wives has 
promoted friendship and provided the fellow 
ship of shared interests and hobbies for hun 
dreds of women associated with the Berkeley 
campus. Organized in 1927 at a meeting :n 
the home of the wife of the University Presi 
dent, Mrs. W. W. Campbell, the Section Club 
has grown from the original 25 members to 
over 850 participating in 22 sections. Besides 
these interest groups, the club sponsors three 
activities whose sole aim is the welfare of stu 
dents: foreign student hospitality, ways and 
means, and S.O.S. (student aid). 

The Foreign Student Committee includes 
over 30 women who work to help students 
from other countries feel at home in the com 
munity. Included in this effort is help with 
housing, home hospitality, the lending of 
household equipment, and various parties 


p. 287 

and social gatherings including faculty and 

Over the years, the Ways and Means Com 
mittee of S.O.S. has sponsored various fund 
raising activities. Money from these has been 
used for the student-oriented activities of the 
Section Club. 

The Dames Club, an organization of stu 
dent wives, is sponsored by the Section Club, 
with faculty wives acting as advisors. An 
emergency loan fund is maintained for the 
use of wives. This provides non-interest bear 
ing short-term loans for needy student fam 
ilies. Money for play equipment at the nursery 
school at Albany Village student housing 
project was donated by the Section Club. 

Members of the Cowell Hospital Commit 
tee of S.O.S. call on students in the hospital 
and during registration, serve coffee and 
punch to students as they come through the 
hospital. In the fall of 1965, more than 7,500 
students were served. 

Margery Thompson asked Miss 
Minard to tell of her role in saving 
the Women's Faculty Club building 
at the U. of C, Berkeley. 

Over and over, when some 
thing wonderful has happened, I 
realize how important one 
individual can be if she will play 
her part. My part was a very small 
cog, very small. 

I was at luncheon one day 
with some of the older women at 
the Club who had been wanting to 
save it, and had worked very hard 
to raise money oh, very hard. 
They had done everything they 
could think of to raise money. 
They said, "We can't do one more 
thing. We're just exhausted." I felt 
sorry for them and I said, "I 
haven't done anything. Why can't 
I do something?" One of them 
said, "Go to it. You have our bless 

"The expense is going to be 
enormous," they said. "We've got 


to have a new furnace, we've got to 
have new electrical circuits, and 
we've got to have new radiators. 
We can't pay for it, we've got to 
give it up." 

Two dear ladies who lived at 
the Club, and were employed on 
the Berkeley campus, often had 
dinner with me on Friday night. 
They talked about their fear for the 
Club, that people were giving up. 
We formed the idea of a picture 
book of the Club. Many of the 
beautiful articles of furniture were 
given when it was first built in '23 
by a group of women who had 
been forbidden membership in the 
men's club. 

Then, I thought perhaps some 
of the people who estimated what 
was needed by the Club had exag 
gerated. So I first asked a plumber 
to come and look. He said that the 
outside drains had been stopped 
up, and that was why water 
backed up into the cellar. So, the 
people in charge of the basement 
were instructed, the drains were 
opened, and all was well. 

I asked another expert to look 
at the clubhouse. This person said, 
"Oh, this building is marvellously 
supported! Just look at these piers. 
The building isn't supported just 
by its wall foundations as many 
buildings are. These great piers of 
stoutest wood probably are very 

The college architect came to 
one of the Women's Club meet 
ings. Now, he didn't build any 
thing. All he did was to look at 
designs. So, he came and spoke 
about the Club. He said that he had 
loved the Women's Faculty Club 
for many years, loved it from his 
very heart. "But," he said, "we've 
got to admit it's a tired old build 

I could have screamed with 
joy. He'd said exactly the wrong 
thing or the right thing, from 
my point of view. After the meet 
ing, I went up to him and said, 
"There is one point you made I 
must disagree with. You said this is 

a tired old building. Forty years 
old. Do you remember that the 
architect was John Galen Howard 
and that he grew up in New Eng 
land, where there are houses of 
timber construction that are still 
standing, in perfect condition, over 
200 years old?" 

Pictures were taken of the 
beautiful furnishings, and made 
into a portfolio. We had a list of 
people who had lived in the Club 
in the past, and I offered to send a 
letter to them asking if they could 
write their happy impressions. 
One of the women said, "It won't 
do any good. You won't get any 

I tried anyway. I was certain 
that we sent 36 letters, each one 
hand written. But we got 40 rep 
lies! Even from remote places, we 
got airplane answers. The letters 
were touching, full of remembered 
enjoyment. We made a booklet of 
those, and a portfolio of those pic 
tures, with the names of donors to 
the Club listed. 

Mills Quarterly, August 1981 







December 14, 1970 

Ref: Women's Faculty Club Building 

University of California Campus 

Miss Florence Minnard 
2606 Shasta Road 
Berkeley, California 94708 

Dear Miss Minnard: 

On December 11, 1970, in response to your "request for service" to this de 
partment, a complete inspection was made of the above-referenced building 
relative to the structural conditions and to the conformity with the Uniform 
Building Code, as well as with the Housing Code, City of Berkeley. The 
following was noted: 

The structure appears to be approximately 45 years old. There are two floors 
used for private sleeping rooms; one floor used for living rooms, dining 
rooms, and kitchen area with full cooking facilities. There is also a full 

The building is Type VN construction with no fire rating. The exterior wall 
covering is wood shingles over wood wall sheathing. The wall area on the 
basement, where exposed, is stucco over wood sheathing. (The balance of 
these walls are concrete retaining walls in good condition.) The interior 
walls of the living area are of lath and plaster, which appear to be in good 
condition. The walls and ceiling of the basement are unprotected joists, 
studs, columns and beams. 

Access was gained to approximately 80 per cent of the private room area 
(sleeping rooms), 100 per cent of the main floor, 100 per cent of the basement 
area and the attic area. 

In checking the basement area, it is our feeling that because of its arrange 
ment, it need not be considered as another story. This would, in effect, 
make it a tliree- story building. 

Inspection of the interior revealed the following: 

1. Walls and ceilings are of lath and plaster in good condition (no 
fire protection). 

2. Four means of egress was available from all floors. These con 
sisted of two fire escapes in good operating condition and two 
sets of stairs. Fire doors (1 3/8" thick, metal clad) was 


Miss Florence Minnard -2- December 14, 1970 

installed on each floor to the stairways. These were double 
acting doors with wire glass panels. During the course of 
inspection, some of these doors were found to be propped open 
by the use of rubber wedges. 

3. All private rooms (sleeping) were checked for size, light, venti 
lation, electrical requirements, and sanitary facilities, 
including plumbing. A thorough check was made to determine any 
possible structural defects or signs of structural failure. 

The basement was checked for the following: the structural 
conditions; also, the condition of the plumbing, heating and 
electrical systems. 

The exterior was checked for structural conditions. 

The following are our findings along with our recommendations: 

a. The Uniform Building Code does not permit a non-fire 
rated building, three stories in height, to Ve used 
as an "H" occupancy (living purposes, apartment, 
hotel, etc.). The Code requires such a building to 
be- not less than one-hour fire restrictive throughout. 
This may be accomplished by the installation of 1/2" 
gypsum board over all interior walls (existing plaster 
will be accepted as part of the fire assembly), plus 
7/8" stucco on the exterior. A minimum of 5/8" gypsum 
board (approved fire-rated) would be required on the 
walls and ceiling of the basement area. 

in lieu of the above, a complete approved sprinkler 
system would be acceptable. This would include all 
floors, the basement and the attic. 

Found all rooms (private) to conform to the Housing 
Code, City of Berkeley in the following manner: 

(1) size, (2) light and ventilation, (3) sanitary 
facilities and plumbing, (4) electrical and 
(5) heating. 

A check of the walls anu ceilings revealed no indication 
of any structural failure. There were some hair line 
cracks noted. These were neither large nor numerous 
enough to suggest structural distress. 

On the main floor we found adequate light and venti 
lation. It was noted that the exit from the living 
room area was controlled by sliding doors. These are 


Miss Florence Minnard -3- December 14, 1970 

not acceptable as a means of egress. It is suggested 
these be replaced with approved swinging doors. 

In the dining room it was noted the second means of 
egress was blocked with table and chairs. It is recom 
mended these be removed and that direct access to this 
exit be available at all times. 

e. Some electrical extension cords were noted in Rooms 

No. 208 and No. 312. These should be kept to a minimum 
or if possible, removed entirely. Also found the cover 
plate missing from an electrical wall outlet in Room 
No. 203. This should be replaced at once. 

f. Double acting doors in the stair enclosure does not pro 
vide the fire protection intended. These doors should 
be made to operate in one direction (and/or in the 
direction of egress). Also, each door should be provided 
with an approved self-closing device and an approved 
latching device. These doors should be kept in a 
"closed" position at all times. 

g. In checking the exterior, it was found that a shingle 
here and there (very few) were missing. These should 
be replaced as soon as possible. The exterior does not 
at this time show any signs of deterioration. The 

4* ferts.*.J 4^ exterior surface, however, is in need of a protective 
^>r, "fcj" covering. This should be taken care of in the not too 

distant future. 

h. In checking the basement, it was noted that the plumbing, 
heating and the electrical systems were in good condition. 
Some new electrical work has been installed recently, 
which appears to conform to the Electrical Code. There 
appeared to be no signs of structural damage or failure. 

Our conclusion is the building, except for the items mentioned, is in sound 
structural condition. 

Respectfully submitted, 


Howard J. Mard 

Building / lnspector 




January 5, 1971 

To every Voting Member 

of The Y/omens Faculty Club 

Re: "Ballot" 

In the "proposition" issued recently by the Board of Directors in 
regard to the discontinuance of the V; Y C as such, there appear several 
statements of rather serious mis-information and mis-statement. 

Section 1, lines 1--3, ctatc: "The '..' F C, according to studios madn by 
the Canpus Architect, requires repairs and renovation in the aiuount of 
approximately 0340,000 to bring it to acceptable standard of continuing 
operation. " 

These items as listed in the Architects and Engineers File No. 41-X242, 
originated., NOT by a study made by the campus architect, but by a survey 
of the building by the then-chairaan of the Building Committee of the 
YJ F C together vdth a member of the architect's staff. This was made at 
the time (196?) when it was planned to raise 080,000, the Regents to lend 
us 020,000 and a gift from the Regents of 080,000. Many of thcso items are 
desirable, but, aside from the fire protection, none are in any way 
necessary to the operation of the clubhouse. 

These items were never formally presented to the Board of Directors of 
the V.' F C, nor v/ere they ever formally approved by them. 

Among other itews, the list includes: 

Remodeling or adding closet space in each room 

Various partitions, dividing of larger roons, etc. 

Remodeling bath rooms, including ceramic tile around tubs 

Remo^deling kitchenettes 

Remodel old office for refreshment lounge 

Replace all steam radiators vdth new wall-fin convcctors 

Replace aTT bath room fixtures with new 

Add new bath rooms, lavoratorics and toilet rooms 

Provide new lighting fixtures throughout 

Provide telephone and TV outlet for each room 

Provide aaster TV antenna on roof 

As far as can be ascertained, this list was not revised when the loon was 
no longer possible. As of Aur.ust 7 1967 > the architect's office 
estimated the cost at 0240,000; the present cost, as of lUirch 1, 1971, 
at 0344,500. 

Does the failure to provide these luxury items then offer the only 
alternative of uusving into one rooa in the r:en's club ? 

To every voting member of the V/ F C - continued -2- 

The last sentence of Section I states that "the income of the V/ F C 
has never been sufficient to permit the accumulation of a reserve for 
maintenance and repair ...." 

This shows an utter lack of research into the history of the building i 
In 1950, the Building Committee had savings of more than 010,000 in the 
bank. A portion of this was used to re-cover the roof with fire-resista 
shingles; to replace window sills along the south face of the building; 
to remove vines which were damaging the outside v;alls; to replace damage 
shingles and to re-stain and paint the trim over the entire building. 

Later in the same decade, funds had again accumulated and the kitchen 
was entirely reniodeled; fire doors were placed at the heads of stairways 
leading to the residence floors and new furniture v/as placed in some of 
the rooms. In 19>7.> the cost of renovating the dining room was met by 
some L1,000, again from funds of the T/ F C Building Committee. 

At the present time, although v;e are rapidly recovering, it has not be 
possible to accumulate a reserve for Maintenance, due to losses caused b; 
unfortunate management in the last two years. 

It has been stated with much repetition that we have a "tired old 
building". Since no review was made of the so-called "necessary" items, 
nor was any outside contractor consulted to give an impartial opinion 
on the condition of the building, vie secured, and paid for, the services 
of the Building Inspector of the City of Berkeley. In his report, (attacl 
he states that ho considers the building to be "in good structural 

In speaking of the two clubs, the Board of Directors has used three 
different terms: 

First paragraph, second line 
. .. The two Faculty Clubs combined 

Item 6, last line 
... The amalgamation of the two clubs 

Item 3, first line 
.,The Joint Committee on Merger of the Faculty Clubs 

While these three terms may be synonymous in literature, they do not 
have the same meaning when applied to a corporation. V/hich arc we 
voting for ? 

Also, can the Board of Directors of a corporation ask for a vote "in 
principle" ? This, in zvality, constitutes asking for a "yes" vote from 
two points of view. And in v;hat manner can any Board of Directors of 
any corvorr.tirn "i*"lf :irr" a building or any of the cor:x>ration'r; ca: 
assets v/iti.out a doi'ijUwC statement 01* the fom of release, such as 
sale, rental or gift ? 

To every voting member "of the \i F C - continued -3 


We disagree with the last three lines of Section 3 that "establishment 
of a lounge area .... v/ill preserve the atmosphere of the V.' F C> etc..." 
The Club was founded to be of help in problems of education, not only of 
the women on the campus, but of visiting faculty, and of foreign and 
graduate students. To remove the possibility of furnishing living 
quarters by substituting "transient living accomodations " and a mere 
social lounge seems to destroy the very purpose which the Club has 
carried on for nearly half a century. 

. ,- . , 

Lucille Czamowski 

? ilay Dornin 

Joi f ) ( (' i^' "''.I Jifl '> c^. 

Florence L 

ttu/. / /L L<; <.(('! 

Harriet Nicewonger 

Elizabeth Scott 

Josephine . Smith 

Dear Members: 



February.. .23 

Because so many of you have raised questions which have not had satis 
factory answers, we have prepared a summary of the activities of the various 
committees which, since 1966, have been involved in reviewing the problems 
of the Men's and Woman's Faculty Clubs to determine whether or not there 
could be a joint solution. 

I am sorry those of you who wrote us after the December, 1970 meeting 
were not answers' 1 personally] this is one of the problems of a volunteer 
board; I apologize. If this summary docs net answer all of ycur questions, 
please do net hesitate to ask for additional information, or perhaps it 
mi^ht be more satisfatery for you to read, the minutes of the various committees 
from which this summary was compiled. They arc on file in the club office,, 

In 1966, a committee composed of members of the Beard of Directors of 
the T'JFG went to the Chancellor to ask whether or not it were possible for the 
University to provide- a subsidy for the dining room of the WFC. As you all 
know, this has over the years, presented us with a financial problem and. the 
deficit has been supported by the dues of the members. This request led to 
the appoinrncnt by the Chancellor of a special committee, which came to be 
known as the Ad Hoc Committee, to study the Men's Faculty Club and the 
Women's Faculty Club, This committee continued to function with occasional 
changes in membership, until June, 1970, when it was disbanded. Upon recom 
mendation of tht. Ad Eoc committre a special committee was appointed in 
April. This committee v.s composed of three members each from the B cards 
of Directors of both clubs to make proposals to the memberships for a possible 
combination of the two clubs in one facility. 

Also in 1967 it was agreed that the Building Committee of the WFC, which 7 
was a corporation, and the WFC, which was an association should be combined 
into one corporate structure. In addition, in 1967, the Building Committee 
decided to present a proposal to the Chancellor for a project to redo the 
entire WFC with t'<-e plan that the club members raise '80,000, that the 
Regents give (80,000, and also loan ''.80,000 to the club to pay for the esti 
mated cost of the changes proposed by the Buildinp Committre Chairman and 
the representative cf the Architects and Engineers Office. 

The items covered in this estimate were these listed in the letter which 
was sent to the voting members over the five signatures at the time that the 
proposal was sent cut this January by the Board cf Directors. This would. 
have involved a complete refurbishing and redoing of the club house - 
changes . of the bedrooms, adding of bathrooms, .-md extensive, redecoration 
(the estimate of ;"2LO,000, which was made in 1967, is the item mentioned at 
the December meeting which is now, vrith the rising costs, estimated at 
v 350, 000.) So the T '-TC started simultaneously to discuss in the Ad Hoc com 
mittee to study the problems cf the two clubs while carrying on at the same 
time the project to raise nonoy for a complete renovation of the WFC house. 

The Chancellor agreed to the WFC proposal for a fund, raising campaign and 


also on the proposal tc the Regents for a gift ?nd, with the under 
standing that the WFC money raising project wculd not conflict with the 
Urivr.rL-ity's Centennial fund raising, which went en in 196? and 1968. During 
the rcrcb two years, a grc?.t mcny members of the club participated 1 in fund 
raising and i n pol?.citin<* funds from the members and othr rs, and a great deal 
cf tine and energy vent into these enterprises. Unfcrunately from all these 
efforts, only '3?;. COO was raised, of which .*11,000 cone from the Building 
CcTOU.toe-c. Approximately '11,000 was spent on the renovation of the dining 
rc-c-n in 1968 and roughly f 10, 000 on repairs tc the kitchen from donation 
furds . There is new, the Treasurer reports, approximately 'ITjOOO left in 
this fnnd. exclusive of ? 1,000 in unfulfilled pledges. 

part cf this period, we had a very efficient food service manager, 
vho r -L<*. net live in the building. She was bothered by the maintenance on the 
ba:l'..d.i:^g, and complained steadily about leaks in our "old building." Ker 
mi/ 1 , interest was in the dining room where she did an excellent job. In 
September of 1968, we employed another manager who worked very hard, tc give 
us ~ccd food, but who, unfortunately, incurred continuous loss over a period 
cf tine cf arcund fiO ; 000. In the spring of 1970 he left because of illness. 
Since then we have had managers who have managed to keep us in the black, so 
that cur current financial records indicate that we have been steadily 
operating in the blacx even accumulating a modest surplus. 

By the end of 19^9, it seemed quite cloar rhst not only could the club 
ncnbcrs net raise the f 80,000 but because cf the budgetary situation, the 
gi r t Ttf 1 lean would be difficult tc obtain. Thus the project of redoing the 
club house wns given up, The Ad Kec Committee which had continued to meet 
during this period, focused then its attention to the proposed combination 
of th.- two clubs. 

During the activities cf the Ad Hoc Committee, a professional food serv 
ice person was employer' a.r.c 1 paid for by the Office of the Chancellor to 
examine the two food services. Out cf this examination came the proposal 
that the MFC should hire Manning and many changes were made in the VJFC be 
cause of the suggestions made by the consultant. I wrote you a letter after 
the. annual meeting in 1970, giving you some of the committee findings, 
although from seme- cf the questions at thr annual meeting, it appeared I 
didn't give er.cugh infcrmaticn. The idea of redoing the WFC clubhouse was 
given up for the combination of the two clubs, under one facility. The 
Ad Hoc Committee tried to include in their deliberations anything which was 
suggested by any member as a possible proposal. It is .understandable that 
all cf the members who have served, en the Ad Hoc in the last 3* years feel 
that they have wcrkcd hard, and it is unfortunate that so many of our 
members feel that they have net had complete *nd full informaticn on the 

At the moment the best estimate which it is possible for us to get of 
the things which need to be done in the clubhouse (not all the desirable 
ones) is somewhere between f60,000 to f85,000. This estimate inilud.c the 
sprinkler system, termite repairs, seme repairs in the electrical system 
(in adcitirn to those which were already made) and some repairs in the 
heating and plumbing systems which still present us with problems. 

At the annual meeting the members voted for a committee cf five to 
prepare a proposal for a combination agreeable to both clubs, using the nen's 
club house as the main clubhouse, but retaining the WFC for multi-use. (The 
latter was included in a proposal by the Prytanean Alumnae, Inc.) The multi-use 
'ight include a Center for continuing educational needs of 

-3- 286 

women, as well ?.s scrno cf the activities rf the T -TC. The committee cf 
fiv. has beer apocinted nr.d bos already had one meeting, and is planning 
tc meet cv.-:ry week, 

The committee members are: 

Elizabrth Sect- 

Margaret Uric 1 go 
Katherinc Staufi'er 

Mary Ann Johnson 

Ruth N v Donnelly, chairman 

Any cf the ccnnittrc members would welcome any suggestions that you 
have to add tc their delibcratirns e 

The ccmmittr.e cf three tc work with the Prytancan Alumnae rn their 
prcpcs?.! h'is a? members: 

May Dcrnin 


Grace Reincman 

Rirrictte ITiccwcnger 

These two ccmrnittces will prepare proposals promptly which can be sent 
tc you fcr yrur consideration and vote. 

I have every hope that with the help cf all members, we will be able 
tc arrive at a happy sciutirn tc cur m?ny problems, It is cur great desire 
tc have all of ycu participate with any suggestions; ^nd I urge you tc 
give then tc the members cf either cf these committees. 

Sincerely yours, 

Mary Leu Norrie 


Board cf Directors 

Women's Faculty Club 



October 21, 1971 

*"'"' . 
r :;.;. v 

Chancellor Albert H. Bowker 
200 California Hall 
University of California 
Berkeley, California 94720 

Dear Chancellor Bowker: 


This letter formally authorizes the Berkeley Campus to 
expend up to $600,000 of fund previously pledged (see 
Peter Haas 1 letter of March 21, 1968) and donated to the 
Berkeley Centennial Fund by the "Levi Strauss Associates" 
for the purpose of renovating ($400,000) and expanding 
($200,000) the Faculty Club in accordance with descriptions 
previously submitted to Levi Strauss Associates and approved 
by The Regents of the University of California. 


Walter A. Haas 

Levi Strauss Associates 



Re: Faculty Club Proposals 

Attached are the three proposals which were submitted to the. donors 
to secure their allocation of funds previously- contributed to thu 
Berkeley Centennial Fund. Please note that the two projects totaling 
$600,000 for the Faculty Club remodeling and addition were accepted 
and approved by the donors, but the Women's Education Center proposal" 
was not accepted and approved. 

The Regents' action in May permitted us to seek a final agreement froa 
the donors to these plans; and in the fall of 1971, a letter of authori 
zation was finally consumated. 

Chancellor Heyns, in his transmittal letter, said to the donors, "I 
think there is a wonderful kind of logic to having the major focus of 
the gift be the improvement of the faculty club and facility, and hope 
you do too. The Haas family is already identified with an extra 
ordinary gift to student life. Now comes a generous contribution to 
the life of the faculty. It comes right after a recent national 
tribute to the faculty's distinction and will be another enormous boost 
to faculty morale." 

A final word: While we attempted to be as specific as possible in the 
proposal drafting, we said verbally to the Haas family that there may 
be some minor changes in the project elements as we moved f orward with 
more specific planning and as the Men's and Women's Faculty Clubs had 
a chance to absorb the impact of this most generous gift. While minor 
changes could be, any major revision would certainly have ro be 
discussed with the donors so they can be assured that their objective 
of aiding and supporting the faculty would be achieved. 

I hope these items will be helpful and will "expedite the development 
of this project. 

Joseph R. Mixer 

Special Assistant 

to the Chancellor 


Attachments: Proposals (3) 

bcc: Vice Chancellor Campbell 

UNIVKKSITY OF CAUFOIINIA (LfMtrhfd for interdc-prtmcntl UM) 

University Club for the Derkelcy^gwipus 


For decades the Berkeley Campus of the University of California has struggled, 
against tlu: odds of great size, to maintain some sense of community. The 
Berkeley Campus is at once spectacular in appearance and yet so physically 
diffuse as to impair an easy association by members of the University community. 

The faculty is unquestionably the central ingredient in the greatness of this insti 
tution. Thoir unselfish efforts and commitment to the University of California, 
often through turbulent times, liavc ad.cted immeasurably to the knowledge and 
well-being of humankind. 

We now propose that $-100,000 be allocated for the purpose of extensively remodel 
ing and redecorating the Men's Faculty Club and to facilitate, thereby, the creation 
of a single University Club to serve both faculty and staff. This proposal antici 
pates that the Men's Faculty Club and ths Women's Faculty Club will soon conclude 
a merger agreement. (Negotiations are now well along.) The conversion of the 
Men's Faculty Clubhouse into a University Club would accomplish several highly 
important purposes. First and foremost, it would provide the campus community -- 
and especially the faculty --with a handsome setting for meeting and dining together. 
The symbolic value of the gift to the faculty for this purpose fan exceeds the actual 
cost involved. Second, this gift will make available considerable space now occupied 
by the Women's Faculty Club for other much-needed uses by women on the campus. 

The kinds of renovation and refurbishing that have been suggested by the Campus 
Architect, in consultation with a faculty committee, are described as follows: 

A handsome bridge or ramp would be constructed from ground level at the south of 
the Clubhouse to the d?ck now adjoining the second floor reading room. This in ef 
fect will create a dramatic new main entrance to the Club. The present reading 
room would be developed into a new loungo with new furnishings, flooring, wall 
finishes, lighting, and the necessary repairs. The deck, rails, and doors outside 
the new lounge would be renovated. The "Buck Suite" and other bedrooms would bs 
converted into a sitting room, men's and women's toilets and powder room. Office 
space would be enlarged. 

New lighting would be installed throughout the Club. All new furnishings would be 
provided for the Club. Parking space is badly deficient at present, so additional 
parking would be provided as well as adequately lighted paths to the new entrance 
and appropriate landscaping. Outdoor dining space would be enlarged. A food ser 
vice line would be installed. All fees for building and furniture, plans, specifications, 
inspection, and other costs would be included. 

In sum, the Men's Faculty Clubhouse, a structurally sound and distinguished work of 
architecture, would be redeemed through the generosity of tlic Haas family and trans 
formed into an elegant center for the University community. 



Women's Education Center 

Background: The emerging status of women in our society and their needs for higher 
education require new means of access to and completion of advanced study and 
training. The impact of technology on the labor force and horocmaking responsibil- 
lics and related changes in family life have freed women for fuller use of their 
intellectual abilities and productive capacities. However, the educational process 
of women terminates or is interrupted at various junctures tliroughout their lives, 
but by no means is the need lessened for completion of their education. Recently, 
national studies have pointed out the desirability for some men and women to inter 
rupt their education and then continue it in acceptable and recognized programs. 
Many women enter or re-enter their careers at a period later in their lives than do 
most men; consequently, they come to the University with a great deal more maturit; 
but with less understanding and knowledge about how they can complete their cducatic 
and use their knowledge in the working world. 

Proposal: A Women's Education Center is proposed for the Berkeley campus to meet 
the diverse and special reeds of more mature women who wish to enter the Umversit 
initially or who seek to continue their education through one or more of its various 
avenues. The W.E.C. would have the following functions: , 

A. Guidance: The Center would offer guidance to women through available library 
resources on career and educational opportunities, staff and volunteers and 
other devices which could be selected by the applicants to meet their needs for 
information and direction. 

B. Facilitation: The Center would assist women applicants to secure entrance to the 
University or obtain the necessary preparation for eventual entrance to the 
University, and to help facilitate their obtaining the necessary credits for past 
experience which might be just as valid but not conforming exactly to University 
rubs and regulations. It would seek intelligent and humane applic. Lion of 
University rules and procedures to meet the changing conditions as posed by mo] 
mature women . 

C. Research: The Center would encourage, coordinate and sometimes undertake 
. specific research activities dealing with women's continuing education and its 

application. In the initial stages the emphasis would be on stimulating research 
by other agencies and units of the University and the surrounding community. 


D. Communication: The Center would undertake programs of communication and 

information by conducting workshops and conferences about problems of women. 
This function would seek to enlarge the general knowledge in this area among a 
variety of individuals and groups. The emphasis would be on dissemination of 
information to groups rather than the above-mentioned function of guidance 
which focuses on specific individuals and their concerns. 

Page Two 



E. Development of Financial Aid: The Center would seek to encourage greater numbers 
of fellowships, scholarships, and grant -in -aids for the purpose of aiding women 

to return to the University. These funds would be administered tlirough tlic normal 
University channels . 

F. Informal Relrtj on ships: The Center, through its offices, conference facilities 
and guidance, \vould naturally evolve as a vehicle tlirough which individuals could 
meet oilers who luu'c similar problems and concerns and thus provide personal 
interaction which would be supportive to individual efforts. 

Staffing The Center would require in the first two years a half-time director, a full- 
time administrative assistant advisor, and a full -time secretary --bookkeeper- - 
receptionist. These three indiviuals would staff the permanent functions and would 
seek to encourage high level participation by qualified volunteers from various 
women's organixations and groups connected or involved with the campus such as the 
Prytancan Alumnae Association, the Women's Faculty Cl.ub, the Berkeley Women's 
Faculty Group, faculty wives, etc. 

Physical Facilities: The Center would require a minimum of three offices, a combi 
nation conference -library -lounge room, a guidance and advising room and reception 
area with prospects for expansion as the program enlarges and the number of 
individuals served increases. Such facilities would become available in the Women's 
Faculty Clubhouse when that organization and the Men's Faculty Club, stimulated by 
the gift of the Haas Family, consolidate their operations in the remodeled and re 
decorated facility now operated by the Men's Faculty Club. 

Financing: To get this program started, the major cost would be the rehabilitation 
and remodeling of the Women's Faculty Club, estimated at $75,000. 

The operating costs for the first year are estimated at $25,000. The budget in 
subsequent years would be met by a variety means. For example, the Prytanean 
Alumnae, Inc. is exploring ways to make available some of its capital assets over a 
period of four or five years. Some of the services provided by the Center may be 
reimbursed by fees. As the Center continues, its activities will generate interest 
on the part of foundations and individuals who could be appealed to for support either 
on the basis of specific project grants or outright gifts. 

Summary: Rehabilitation of Women's Faculty Club $ 75, 000.00 

Operating costs for one year 25,000.00 



In undertaking a project of tliis type the Uui varsity would be joining liands with other 
institutions which have recognized this need and have established similar useful 
centers. Each one of these centers has different characteristics due to its location, 
staffing, and institutional needs. Preliminary explorations of the need for tliis type 
of center at Berkeley have indicated that there will be an overwhelming acceptance 
of the concept of such a center and very extensive use of its services. 

University Club Dining Facilities 

The Need 

In view of tie proposed remodeling of the. Men's Faculty Club to produce 
a handsome new University Club with a broadened membership (as 
described elsewhere in detail), there no doubt will be an upsurge in the 
use of tliis facility. While the remodeled area will accommodate a 
slightly enlarged flow of people, the Club will soon require additional 
dining facilities. A handsome new dining facility would reduce any over 
crowding and would enhance significantly the gracious atmosphere 
created through the Haas Family gift. 

The new dining wing would consist of 4,000 square feet. The wing 
would be extended from the east side of the present club and would be 
contiguous to what is now the main serving area. 

Estimated Cost 

The estimated total cost of tliis addition is approximately $200,000. 
The budget for the facility includes structure, access, serving area, 
furniture, fees, plans, specifications and all other costs. 

4./22/T 1 




A^ the present time the Men's Faculty Club has a combined Active 
and A; 3'>:: r .a:e nernbership of approximately 1,100, Dues are graduated 
by ccacariic raril: with about 60 percent of the membership paying ?>73>0 
a month, rbou'b 15 percent paying 6.00 a month, and the remainder 
paying t'L.OO a month. Total dues income amounts to approximately 
$6,200 a month. 

Tli^ Women 1 s Faculty Club has a combined membership of approxi 
mately h5C :'.n the Active and Associate categories plus a few 
graduate students. Dues are $3.50 a month for Active, $3.00 a month 
for Associates, and $1.00 a month for graduate students, with total 
dues income amounting to about $1,550 per month. 

Prin cities of the Combined Operation 

It is proposed to conduct a Combined Operation of the two clubs 
for a trial period not to exceed two years from the effective date 
of the combination. It is understood that, if the combined operation 
proves satisfactory, the long-term goal vill be the creation of a 
merged organization with a single set of categories of membership and 
a single dues structure. 

The combined operation would be operated under the following 
set of principles during the trial period: 

1. The present corporate structure cf the two Clubs would be 
maintained. The financial assets and liabilities of each Club as 
of the effective date would not be affected by the combined 
operation exept that any accounts receivable or payable from current 
operations as of the effective date would be the responsibility of 
the separate clubs. 

2. Each Club would retain title to its dues and initiation 
fee inccne, income from investments, and other income that might 
accrue from occasional individual Club-sponsored, events that might 
be held in the facilities (e.g. the Men's Club Christmas party, 
art sales, etc.) during the period of combined operations except 
as noted below. 

Beginning with the effective date of the combined operation, 
the Women's Faculty Club would transfer one-half of its current 
dues and initiation fee income each month to the Combined 
Operations in fulfillment of their financial obligations under the 
combined operation. All income from opers-fciona of the present Club 
buildings, garage, etc., will also accrue to the Combined 

Sent to WFC members June 3, 1971 


Operation as it is earned. The Men's Club will manage the 
Combined Operation, which will assume responsibility for all 
expenses incurred in the conduct of those activities in both Club. . 
Buildings that are related to activities of either Faculty Club. This 
includes current expenses, maintenance, insurance, taxes and. other costs 
necessary for the Clubs' share of operating expenses. 

If for any reason either C? w ub building cannot be used as a residence 
facility at substantially the sane level as it has in the past for a 
period of more than twc months during the term of this agreement, the 
financial arrangements for the joint operation contained herein shall 
be reviewed and appropriately modified. 

3. The Men's Club will house the administratifcive and regular 
fcod preparation services and the Combined Operation staff will provide 
the necessary support for billing and dues collection from the members, 
of both Clubs. Meal service may be provided by special arrangement in 
the Women r s Club if such service is economically feasible. At the end 
of six months of joint operation, the operating experience will be 
reviewed by the Governing Board. 

li. A Current Operating Committee made up of two members, one 
representing each Club, would advise the Manager of the Combined Opera 
tions on current operating questions. Each Club will name an alternate 
to their regular member to insure that a representative will be available 
to make decisions. The committee would work with general policy 
direction from the Governing Board of the Combined Operation. If the 
Operating Committee is unable to reach agreement on an issue, the 
question would be submitted to the Governing Board of the combined 
facilities for decision. 

5. Overall policy for Combined Operation will be developed by a 
Governing Board for the joint operation. This board will be made up of 
nine members, divided between representatives of the Men's and Women's 
Club according to the appoximate ratio of Active and Associate members 
of the two Clubs. (At present, this would mean six Men's Club and three 
Women's Club representatives.) It would be expccrec" that most issues 
could be decided by consessus, but in the event of an ampasse, it would 
be understood that in questions involving the use and arrangements of 
the present Men's Club facilities appropriate weight would be given to 
the majority position of the Men's Club members, and that in questions 
involving the use and arrangements of the Women's Club building, 
appropriate weight would be given the majority position of the Women's 
Club representatives. 

6. It is understood that a substantial sum of money mi^ht be 
available to the Faculty Clubs to aid in the development of the concept 
of the combined and expanded operation. If funding becomes available, 
it is understood that there will be a general refurbishing and improving 
of the Men's Club building (including the development of an attractive, 
upgraded lounge and associated facilities) and repair and. conversion of 
the Women's Club building to multi-purpose use such as residence facil 
ities and a women's center. 

7. Every attempt will be made to provide opportunities for 
st-.ff of the Women's Club to transfer to the service staff of 
the Combined Operation. Adequate- notice of cessation cf 
ccerr.tions will be provided other employees of the W omen's 
Club and the Clubs' management will consult jointly on means 

r-ffect of the combination on present employees. 



July 6, 1972 

Dear Members, 

I realize it has been some time since I have written you 
concerning club matters. Several items have been pending and 
I have been awaiting their resolution before writing. 

First and possibly foremost in your minds concerns the 
operation of our clubhouse. The plan for the first six months 
of joint operation did not work out as well as originally 
intended. The major faults seemed to be the lack of supervi- 

ision of work bein^ done at our building and certain failures 
in communication between management, employees, and residents. 
Consequently, the Joint Operating Committee after studying the 
financial and managerial aspects of the problem has started on 
a different arrangement as of July 1, 1972. The following 
points explain the present system: 

II. As of July 1, 1972, the representatives of the Women's 
Faculty Club on the Joint Operating Committee will assume 
complete responsibility for the operation and the staffing 
of the women's club building. 

2. All the income generated by the rental and other sources 
related to the women's building will be available for oper 
ation of the clubhouse. All the expenses of operation, 
both current and the fixed overhead expenses, will be the 
responsibility of the Women's Faculty Club. Any surplus or 
deficit will be the responsibility of the Women's Faculty 

3. The accounting and other record keeping required by the 
Women's Faculty Club as part of the Joint Operation in con 
nection with the operation of our clubhouse will continue 
to be provided by the Joint Operation. 

In keeping with the above points we are continuing Mrs. Curtis 
as manager and Mrs. Gordon Britland in the office. Mrs. Curtis 
is presently making the arrangements for the other staffing needs 
of our building. 

Another announcement I am sure most of you will be glad to 


hear is that Manning's has been given two months notice. After 
September 1, 1972, Mr. Walters, The Faculty Club manager, will 
supervise the food service. This move should result in better 
food service and less financial overhead. Along this same line 
the Faculty Club has been granted a liquor license." The effec 
tive date for bar service will be announced as soon as the de 
tails are worked out. 

Some renovation work and refurbishing will be starting in our 
building in the near future. Bids for the work have been re 
ceived and requisitions are in the process of being prepared for 
phase I (interior painting, rugs, window shades, and some furni 
ture). Phase II (drapes, exterior painting, necessary electrical 
and plumbing, etc.) will also be arranged for shortly. 

Some of you may not know that we had two resignations from 
the Board of Directors, Barbara Bolen and Barbara Hoepner. I am 
pleased to announce that Betsy Mills has been appointed to the 
board and has been elected the Treasurer. Katherine Stauffer ha* 
also accepted appointment to the board and will be serving as th< 
Membership Chairman. We are most fortunate to have such fine 
replacements and appreciate their willingness to serve. We also 
appreciate greatly the many hours of service that Barbara Bolen 
and Barbara Hoepner gave to the club. 

We recently received notice of the recipents of the Lucy Ward 
Stebbins Scholarships for 1972-1973. They are Jan Kathleen Gamr 
a senior in Psychology, and Jean Marie Heidelberger, a junior in 

Should you have any question regarding the club operations 
please refer them to Ruth Donnelly during July. I shall be out 
of town until the end of the month. Here's wishing all of you a 
mosL pleasant summer. 


Mary Lou Norrie 

President, Board of Directors. 


Wed. December 6, 1972 

I, Comnxittee organization: 

A, The Board of Directors at the November 1,1972 meeting, voted as follows: 

n That a new committee, similar to the Committee of Five e 1971a b 
appointed to prepare and present a statement of that the Vfomen s 
Faculty Club proposes for a merger, pointing out the present ~ 
unsatisfactory situation. This proposal to be sent to the 
Women's Faculty Club members before the Annual Meeting, to be 
voted upon there. Also, that recommendations for revision of the 
By-laws be made to omit any reference to the sea of members," 

Three Board members were sppointed: Margaret Uridge, chairman; Colette 
Seiple, and Martha Stuspf . Two non-Board members were later appointed 
by President Mary LOU Norrie. They were: Roberta Park and Dorothy 
Randolph. President Norrie to be an ex-officio member and Henry Poppic 
to be legal advisor to the Committee was also approved, 

B, Meetings: 

The Committee has met five times to date, with the first meeting 
held Thursday, November 16th. Mr. Poppic attended the third meeting, 
November 28th, and Vice-Chancellor Kerley the fourth meeting Nov. 30th, 

C, The Committee had frank discussions at all meetings, exploring various 
proposals. These discussions were summarized in "Notes on the Meetings", 
prepared by the Chairman, which became a starting point for the discussior 
in the following meetings. 

The Committee as a whole has review^fchis report and amended it as it saw i 

II, Background information: 

A, The Coasnittee members were given copies of the following: 

l)Letter of Pres.Mary Lou Norrie, to WFC members, of Feb. 23, 1971, as a 
review of the proposals for merger to that date, 2)"Proposed principles 
for the Joint Operation of the Faculty Clubs" May 25,1971. 3)Letters' of 
Oct. 17 from Joe Garbarino; N*ov.8, in answer, from M.L. Norrie; Nov.ll;, 

in answer to that, from Joe Garbarino, Pres. of The Faculty Club. 

B, Previous action on proposed merger: 

1) January 9,1971 Report of the Ad Hoc Committee to Study the Men's and 
Women's Faculty Club was voted down by the WFC membership Feb. 1971. 

2) WFC Committee of Five legal agreement proposal for Join Operations, 
dated March 29, 1971, was refused by the Men's Club representatives. 

3) Modified "Proposed Principles of Joint Operations..." agreed to 5/2 5/ 

C, Unsatisfactory situation of the Joint Operations: 

1, Accounting & Management: 

a. July 1, 1972, .at suggestion of the Men's Club President, the Womei 
Club took over the management of the WFC building, with rentals, 
maintenance, etc., because of frequent complaints about lack of 
maintenance and concern for the up-keep of the building. 

b, November 1, 1972, again at the suggestion of the Men's Club Presi< 
Women's Faculty Club took back the billing of its own members, 
including the bills for meals in the Men's Club, and the WFC dues, 

2, "Proposed principles of Joint Operations" not followed: 

a. Governing Board never irsplemented* WFC members were appointed, bu1 

those from the Men's Club were not. 

b. Manager reported to the President of the ''en's Club, not to the 

Joint Operations Committee, & tended to ignore WFC needs. 

c. Billing operations followed By-Laws of Men's Club } with no prior 

agreement with HFC reprssantatives, with their "delinquent" c. 

298 ^ 

III. Proposals discussed: 

A, Joint Operations continue with following points: 

1. Manager reports to Joint Operations Committee, not to the 

Men's Club President; and thus can be fired by the Joint 
Operations Committee. 

2. Activate, as in the agreed upon Proposals, the Joint Operations 

Governing Board. 

3. Suggestions that an outside group make a management survey. 

B v Women's Faculty Club building: 

1. Maintain present character of the lounge, library & dining-room. 

2. Develope long-term plans on utilization of the building, including 

residential and first-floor rooms use. 

3. Importance of the fact that the majority of the present members 

of the WFC feel very strongly about the building, the members 
having built it and paid for it, and are now out of debt; and 
that there was misunderstanding about the amount of refurbishing 
would be paid for by the BB gift (which did pay for the 
installation of sprinklers. ) 

U- Should be structurally joined to the Men's Faculty Club building to 
form a Faculty Center. The afmosphere it offers complements that 
of the Men's Club - neither replaces the other. The WFC lounge 
is especially useful for receptions. 

5. Parking area - with the recommendation previously made that the 

new Optometry wing be built to have its proposed open court 
toward the WFC building. 

6. Would the WFC membership vote to release the building to the 

University if the latter said it would be used as a symbolic 

center for wcmen's activities on canpus. 

One suggestion being made that the Academic Women Ombudsman be 
located in the presently-unused room rented to the Center for 
Continuing Education for Women. 
C. Areas of conflict in combining the two clubs into one organization: 

1, Membership: Qualifications, dues, voting (WFC members run the WFC, 

while Ken's Club Board runs theirs, even to changing By-Laws.) 

2, Men's Club By-Laws that include House rules for their building. 

3, Debt of the Men's Club. 

Proposal to organize a new Corporation, called the Faculty Center: 

1. Articles of incorporation to include both roen and women without 
discrimination, and with women guaranteed to be on Board. 

2. Agreement included on the payment of the Men's Club debt - 

out of the profits, after a proportion set-aside for a maintenan 
and renovation fund. 

3. Membership to include a "grandfather clause" for all members of bo 

present clubs; base of membership broadened to include administr 
campus personnel and non-tenured faculty, including lecturers, 
and also graduate students, such as Teaching Assistants. 
Non-members restricted in use of the club facilities, aa members i 
dues helps to defray costs of the Center. 
1+. An "out-reach" program to attract the younger academics on campus. 

5. Proposal that the new organization have entirely new management 
personnel drew considerable discussion and strong disagreement 
from one menber^ of the Committee. 

6. The Bar license could be transferred to the new organization, and 
would help to pay off the deficits from the dining-room and also 
the Men's Club debt. 



For Action: 
A. Facts that need to be detenrined : 

1. Use of the residential rooms of the WFC during last few years. 

2. Use of the lounge of WFC bldg. during last few years. 

3. Turn-away applicants for residential rooms at Men s Club 
1. Turn-away applicants for use of special rooms at Men's Club 

*> Profit & Loss Statement of WFC^for several immediately past years. 

6, Corporation status of Men's clubT^^ * VV^o 

7. Terns of the Haas gift. 

B. Implement ati on : 

1. Ask Ruth Donnelly to determine "utilization of WFC " statistics. 

2. Ask D.Keller, Josephine Smith & Betsy Mills to collect the profit & 

Loss figures. A-rr v ^'^ c -^ 

3. Colette Seiple follow- through on suggestion that Vice-Chancellor's 

Management group could assist ' possibly they could get figures 
of utilization of Men's Ciub, and their profit & loss during the 
Joint Operation & before; and the turn-sway figuresj also getting 

copies of the Haas gift terras. 
1^, Review Committee to follow-up on request jbo^Sacraraento for 

Articles of Incorporation of Men's Club, J * ( wnich Mr. Poppic had 

written 4v Nov. 22,1972. 
C, Preparation for a possible new organizations 

1. M.L.Norrie and M.D. Uridge to draft a Constitution & By-Laws, 
or Articles & By-laws, to cover points recocmended. 

D.. Committee to prepare a statement regarding the utilization of the 
,Wonn's Faculty Club Building? 

1, As a structural part of the proposed Faculty Center 

2. As a separate building, turned over to the University-^^ 

E. Ccrarsittee to present proposal, for the Board to present to the 
Menfcership of the Women's Faculty Jlub for the Annual Meeting. 

Respectfull submitted 

(Mrs.) Margaret Dl Uridge, Committee Ch 

Dl U 

Committee: Roberta Park 

Dorothy Randolph 
Colette Seiple 

V J * r* 

^ * 

Martha Stumpf 

Margaret Uridge (chairman) 

Mary Lou Norrie (ex-officio) 






WHEREAS, the Board has concluded that it is in the best interests of the 
members of The Women's Faculty Club of the University of California, Inc. 
and of the Faculty Club of the University of California that the corporate 
entities, administration, and operation of the two Clubs should be merged 
into a new Club known as the "Berkeley Faculty Club", and that the merger 
would promote the purposes for which each of the Clubs was organized; 

WHEREAS, the Board has examined the Agreement of Merger and the Terms of 
Merger between the Faculty Club of the University of California and The 
Women's Faculty Club of the University of California, Inc., and the By-Laws 
of the Berkeley Faculty Club presented to the Board; 

NOW, THEREFORE, be it hereby 

RESOLVED, that the said Agreement of Merger, the said Terms of Merger, 
and the said By-Laws, and each and all of their terms and conditions, 
are hereby approved; 

FURTHER RESOLVED, that the President and Secretary are hereby authorized 
and directed to execute and acknowledge the said Agreement of Merger 
in the name of and on behalf of this corporation; 

FURTHER RESOLVED, that the officers of this corporation are authorized 
and directed to call a special meeting of the members of this corporation 
for the purpose of considering and voting on the said Agreement of Merger, 
the said Terms of Merger, and the said By-Laws, and to seek their adoption 
at that meeting by a majority of the enfranchised members of this corpo 
ration, or, without calling a special meeting of the members of this corpo 
ration, to seek the written consent to the said Agreement of Merger, the 
said Terms of Merger, and the said By-Laws, of two- thirds of the enfran 
chised members of this corporation; and 

FURTHER RESOLVED, that upon approval as herein provided of the said Agree 
ment of Merger and the said Terms of Merger by the enfranchised members 
of this corporation, the officers of this corporation are directed to 
execute, acknowledge, file, and record such instruments, and perform all 
acts necessary or proper to effect the terms and conditions of the said 
Agreement of Merger and of the said Terms of Merger on behalf of this 

So voted September 15, 197^ at a regularly scheduled 
meeting of the Board of Directors of The Women' s 
Faculty Club of the University of California, Inc. 



Because the President of the Women's Faculty Club has received 
a number of letters arguing against the merger, she has appointed 
a committee to summarize these arguments. (The original letters 
may be seen in the Women's Faculty Club office, or copies will be 
sent to members requesting them.) 

The arguments are both general and specific. In general, the 
argument is that merger is too extreme a form of what the Regents 
in 1971 called "agreement to consolidate the management operations 
of the Women's Faculty Club and the Faculty Club," as a contingency! o 
acceptance of the gift from the Strauss Associates. Further, the 
effort at "Joint Operation" in 1972 though unsuccessful, is held 
by the Faculty Club to have satisfied this requirement. The feeling 
now is that the merger is too obliterative of the separate identities 
of the two clubs, and that homogenization is as antiquated as total 
separation. Some form of shared membership and cooperative campus 
service is suggested, without the sacrifice of the Women's Faculty 
Club's own characteristic spirit and life-style which the concept 
of merger entails. 

Specifically, there are four arguments: 

l)That the Women's Faculty Club should not take on the Faculty 
Club's dues and assessment, and voting structure and their 
membership limitations. 

2) That the Women's Faculty Club should not take on or become a 
part of the faculty Club's book-keeping and accounting system, 
but should keep its own separate accounts, whatever the 
cooperative methods to be established. 

3) That the Women's Faculty Club should not take on the Faculty 
Club's assets and liabilities* 

4)That the Women's Faculty Club should not take on the Faculty 
Club's management procedures which are counter to the Women's 
Faculty Club spirit and life-style, in establishing of tone, 
in treatment of personnel* and in many other ways demonstrated 
in the 1972 experiment. 

In sum, that the concept of cooperation rather tLan that of merger 
would make possible, without loss of identity, the greater amount 
of service to the campus community. 

Committee for Summarizing Objections 

to the Merger 

Josephine Miles, Chairman. 


November 11, 976 

Did any of those who signed the 1^2 affirmative proxies atop to think of the 
effect upon their personal finances if the terms of the merger committee 
were adopted? 

Adoption of these terms would lay each member open, individually, to whatever 
assessment the Board of Directors of the Faculty Club decided to levy. And 
in addition to this and to the $800 per annum which The Women's Faculty Club 
is requested to provide toward the interest on the Faculty Club's debt, there 
is the Faculty Club's notably large debt itself. 

An assessment is not just some vague threat which may happen in the future. It 
happened to the members of the Faculty Club three months ago. The income was 
not sufficient to cover the expenses lius the interest and payment on the debt. 
The result was that each member was assessed $10. Such assessment can happen at 
any time in the future. 

At the present time, and with our present set-up, no member of The Women's Facult 
Club can be assessed, nor can the officers or individual members of the Club 
be sued in a court of law. But if the membership of The Women's Faculty Club 
be merged with that of the Faculty Club, the individual members of each can be 
assessed at whatever time and in whatever amount the Board of Directors of the 
the Faculty Club may, in its wisdom, decide. 

The question of assessment is a very minor matter compared to the shared res- 
ponsibili.ty for the Faculty Club's large debt. The terms of the merger committe' 
call for the consolidation of the assets and liabilities of both clubs. The 
Women's Faculty Club has no debt - only assets,, The Faculty Club has a very 
large debt and v/ould, naturally, like controlnot only of our assets, but would 
like The Women's Faculty Club to share responsibility for their debt as well. 
If the terms of the merger are adopted, we are then open to assessment, and 
also for the financial responsibility when it comes to repayment of the debt. 

According to the Balance Sheet of the Faculty Club, rendered by Raskins and 
Sells. as of June 30, 1976, the "Long Term Debt"stands, as of that date at 
$178.,143. The agreement calls for "Annual Installments of $17,187 including 
interest to 1990". According to the statement, it was this installment 
which the Faculty Club was not able to meet - hence, the "special assessment 
of $14,400" shown, in the first item on page 3 of the Financial Raport. 

303 -2- 

A Financial Yearning - continued 

(Note: There are several items in this report open to critical inspection 
but it is not pertinent to the general subject to call attention to them 
here. However, it should be noted that at any time the Faculty Club fails 
to meet its quota, assessment, levied on the members, will be the 
inevitable result . ) 

There seems to have been a "conspiracy of silence" in failing to mention the 
amount of this debt. It can be understood why the Faculty Club might not wish 
to announce the total at this stage of the game. But WHY did not The Women's 
Faculty Club's Board of Directors ascertain the exact amount of the debt, and 
its terms. They knew of its existence. WHY was this total not mentioned in 
the material sent out to the membership for vote? especially since the Board 
was recommending the merger "in the best interest" of the Club? Is it "in the 
best interest" for the members to assume a financial responsibility of this 
size? To ask the membership to assume responsibility without telling them 
either the amount concerned, or the terms of the debt, seems unbelievable. 

Do you really think that "progress" (so-called) and "the best interests of the 
Club" are served by opening our members to assessment and individual assumption 
of share in the Faculty Club's debt? 

Since it has been proposed to hand *1T control of every sort over to the manager 
of the Faculty Club and with a 2:1 ratio on the proposed governing board, any 
protest that we could make would not have the slightest chance of being heard. 


Note: This mailing is being sent out at no 
expense to The Women's Faculty Club. 


INDEX Women's Faculty Club 

Abbo, Gaston, and Mrs.., 10-12, 88, 137-140, 196, 242 
Adams, Mrs. George P., 60 
Albro, Mary, 96 

Allen, Professor and Mrs., 8 

Armstrong, Barbara Nachtrieb, 29, 39, 63, 68, 70, 186, 209 
Association of Academic Women, 168, 169 

Bacon, Madi, 97 

Barnes, Patricia, 131, 195, 196 

Barrows, David Prescott, 205, 206 

Barton, Babette, 116, 117, 171, 173, 187, 189, 192, 193 

Battle, Mabel, 8 

Beattie, Douglas, 64 

Beattie, Margaret, 5, 64, 70 

Bender, Albert, 16, 54 

Benedict, Henry Harshaw, 24 

Ben's Forum, 171, 172, 176 

Berkeley Fire, 1923, 33, 53, 74, 101 

Bird, Rose, 109 

Birge, Ann, 171 

Bishop, Joy, 107 

Bishop, Katherine, 70 

Black Sheep Restaurant, Berkeley, 181 

Blair, Phyllis, 171 

Bos chan, Alice, 240, 241 

Bowen, Catherine Drinker, 66 

Bowker, Albert, 171 

Boys , Howard M. , 207 

Branch, Mrs. Gerald E.K. , 52, 62 

Bressler, Boris, 196, 198 

Bridgman, Olga, 73, 82 

Briggs, Doras, 157, 170, 187, 189, 192, 203 

Britt, Doris, 233 

Erode, Robert, 76, 196-198 

Brown, Dorothy, 112 

Bruce, Harold, 99 

Bumstead, Amy, 9, 10, 86, 99, 126, 127, 132, 135 

Bumstead, Frank, 99 

Byrd, Admiral Richard E. , 69 


Cahill, James, 175 

Caldwell, James, 118 

Campbell, Orvin W. , 199 

Cardwell, Kenneth., 188 

Chandler, Dorothy, 191 

Cheney , May , 46 

Chickering, Martha, 2Q9 

Christie, Vera, 184, 204 

Cline, James, 104 

Clynes, Manfred, 223 

Cockrell, Robert, 167, 196, 198 

College Women's Club, Berkeley, 30, 51 

Coney, Donald, 85 

Coulter, Edith, 4, 6, 7, 13, 29-31, 43-45, 63, 70, 81, 82, 183-185 

Coulter, Mabel, 17, 30 

Coxhead, Ernest, 40 

Cunningham, Dr. Ruby L. , 56 

Curtis, Florence, 141-143, 217 

Czarnowski, Lucille, 36, 48, 77, 88, 129, 133, 134 

Dadone, Lotte, 237, 243, 246 

Davidson, Mary B. , 7, 43, 45, 64, 74, 78, 86, 127, 128, 134, 135, 141, 209; 

Portrait, 213, 218, 235 
Davis, Alice, 234 
Davis, Ann, 152 
Davis, Natalie, 167 

Davis, Sarah, 4, 43, 44, 70, 71, 91, 183 
Dettner, Anne Low-Beer, 198, 200 
Deutsch, Monroe, 49, 54, 55 

Diamond, Marion, 20, 108, 120, 157, 166; Interview, 170-179; 189, 234 
Donnelly, Ruth, 7, 12, 14, -15, 78, 165 
Dornin, May, 36, 77; Interview, 81-102; 129, 159 
Duggan, Charles, 223 

Eckert, Helen, 168 

Efendiev, Ajaz Adil Ogly, 221-223 

Ehlers, Alice, 66 

Emma (Women's Faculty Club cook,), 141 

English in Action, 222 

Ervin-Tripp, Susan, 121, 168, 171, 192, 193, 203 

Espenschade, Anna, 19, 56 

Evans , G . C . , 151 


Faculty Club, 2, 3, 13-21, 30, 53, 81, 104, 105, 114-116, 120, 131, 132, 140, 

158, 159, 171-179, 210, 212, 213; The Monks, 60, 64 
Fancher, Helen, 4, 5, 62 
Faubion, Clarus, 183, 189 
Fix, Evelyn, 155, 156 
Planner, Hildegard, 104 
Fleming, John, 232, 252, 253 
Flynn, Joseph, 2Q8 

Gallo, Lori, 241 

Gardner, Eleanor, 73 

Gayley, Charles Mills, 55, 1Q1 

Gedrose, Mr. , 141, 142 

George, Julia, 53 

Gladding, Hope, 20, 31, 34-36, 38, 53-55, 58, 62, 71-73, 90, 209 

Goodell and Henry, auditors, 2 

Goodman, Michael, 177 

Gordon-Britland, Gudveig, 10; Interview, 124-148; 242 

Gorman's, Berkeley, 35 

Greer, Alice, 60 

Grey, Constance, 62 

Gunthorp, Pauline, 84, 85 

Haas Gift (to Women's Faculty Club), 39, 115, 117, 118, 161-163, 199-201 

Habib, Philip, 202 

Haskins and Sells, auditors, 17 

Hearst, Catherine, 191 

Hearst, Phoebe Apperson, 53, 101 

Heartz, Daniel, 232 

Heiss, Ann, 189 

Heller, Eleanor, 190, 191 

Hey man, Ira Michael, 19 

Heyns, Roger, 12, 16, 115, 117, 118, 161, 187-189, 196-199 

Hildebrand, Joel H. , 20, 27 

Hilgard, Alice Rose, 18 

Hill, James, 175 

Hodges, Joseph, 159 

Horn, David, 239 

Howard, John Galen, 3, 31, 32, 35 

Huntington, Emily, 64, 107, 110, 111. 164, 165, 181, 198, 200 

Hutchison, Claude, 69 

"Images of California," 112 
Inouye, Ari, 247 


James, Dulcie, 196 

Jepson, Willis, 204 

Jennings., Richard, 167 

Johnson, Mary Ann, 2Q, 165; Interview, 180-203 

Johnson, Phillip, 116, 117 

Jones, Mary Cover, 52 

Kaufman, Joanna, 243, 244, 246, 247 

Kay, Herma, 167, 172, 192, 193 

Kerley, Betty Strenl, 191 

Kerr, Clark, 68, 109, 161, 188 
Koshland, Marian, 172 

Larson, Adeline, 189 

LeBlanc, Julienne, 241, 251, 252 

Lee, Midge, 240 

Lent, May, 44, 64 

Leonard, Professor , 46 

Leupp, Harold, 70, 83-85 

Levy, Sophia, 3, 30, 151 

Lewis, G.N., 20 

Lipman, Charles, 49 

Little, Evelyn, 61 

Louderback, George D. , 20, 204 

Low-Beer, Anne, 198, 200 

loyalty oath., University of California, Berkeley, 20, 56, 75, 76 

Lundberg, Olaf, 25 

Lyon, Mary, 22 

McAbee, Mr. , 15 

McCrodden, Kay, 215, 238 

MacDonald, John, 151 

McGrail, Katherine, 170 

McLellan, Agnes, 88, 98 

Martin, Kate, 131-133, 137-140, 240 

Martin, Nella Jane, 30, 81 

May, Bernice, 11 

Maybeck, Edward, 3 

Meads, Romilda Paroni, 56 

Mel, Florence Nachtrieb, 17, 18, 39 

Men's Faculty Club. See Faculty Club 

Middleton, Anne, 111, 114 

Miles, Josephine, 4; Interview, 103-123; 159, 163, 171, 232-234, 243 

Miller, Blanche, 78 
Miller, Lea, 210, 211 


Mills College, 16, 54 

Minard, Florence, 54, 16Q, 200, 236, 239 
Mitchell, Gertrude, 186-188 
Mitchell, SidneyB., 83-85, 99 
Mois, Elsa, 97 
Moore, Marian, 61, 97 

Morgan, Agnes Faye, 3-6, 29, 30, 43, 45, 48, 55, 68, 69, 75, 82, 109 
Morgan, Julia, 32 
Morrey, Charles B. , 152 
Morrow, Marian, 78 
Mo\mt" Holyoke College, ^22 

Munson (secretarial) School, San Francisco, 205 

Murdock, Margaret, 2, 5, 9, 10; Interview, 29-66; 72, 96, 127, 131-133, 
136, 137, 236 

Nader, Laura, 161, 165, 192, 193 

Neely, Betty, 189, 129 

Neyman, Jerzy, 152, 156, 165 

Nicewonger, Harriet, 164 

Nichols, Evelyn, 237, 241, 245 

Niehaus, Hazel, 208 

Noble, Emily, 209 

Norrie, Mary Lou, 110, 111, 116, 143, 144, 174, 198, 200 

Okey, Ruth, 75, 107, 109 

Owens, Aletha litmus, 173, 187, 189, 190, 196, 198 

Papenfuss, George, 66 

Pandit, Madam Vijayalakshmi, 190 

Park, Roberta, 165 

Patterson, Mary Frances, 3-5, 45, 48, 54, 62, 71, 73 

Peixotto, Jessica, 3, 29., 42-44, 49, 54, 58, 67, 68, 70, 82 

Peters, Stefan, and Mrs., 156, 157 

Peterson, Margaret, 56 

Philips, Anna, 230 

Phipps, Lucille, 129, 130, 195, 196 

Pickard, Edith, 98 

Pierce, Chikako, 237 

Pitkin, Hanna, 176 

Poppic, Henry, 14 

Price, Christine, 60, 84-86, 88 

Prytanean Association, University of California, Berkeley, 111-113, 163, 165 

Putnam, Thomas M. , 68 


Quire, Catherine, 76, 78, 182 

Radcliffe, Caroline, 126, 129, 131, 132 

Randolph, Dorothy, 165 

Ranson, Muriel, 9, 54, 73 

Ristine, Elizabeth, 2Q7 

Ritter, Mary, 56 

Robb, Agnes, 24; Interview, 67-75; 204 

Robinson, Julia, 152 

Rockwell, Maxine, 9, 18, 202, 214, 216, 217, 220, 223, 235, 237-239, 241, 

249, 251 

Rosenmeyer, Thomas G. , 232, 243 
Rowell, Chester, 68 
Rowell, Joseph C. , 83 

St. Moritz Ice Skating Club, Berkeley, 208 

Sanderson, Imogen, 34, 35 

Sartori, Margaret, 53 

Saxon, David, 19, 172 

Scott, Elizabeth., 110-113, 121, 122; Interview, 149-169; 171, 172, 176, 193 

Secrist, Ida, 86 

Seiple, Colette, 165 

Senior, Sally, 234 

Shane, C. Donald, 153, 154, 158 

Sherman, Lily Margaret, 50 

Sierra Club, 27 

Simpson, John, 68 

Singleton, Caroline Bates, 43 

Sizer, Patricia, 73 

Smith College, 22 

Smith, Josephine, Interview, 1-27; 32, 33, 40, 50, 64, 72, 79, 96, 115, 

117, 140, 141, 154, 173, 174, 200, 201, 211 
Smith, Peter, 163 
Smith, Sophia, 22 

Sperry, Pauline, 3, 30, 55, 104-109, 120, 151, 153, 154, 156 
Sproul, Ida W. , 52, 76; Portrait, 235 

Sproul, Robert Gordon, 24, 55, 70, 72, 73, 75-77, 185, 204-206 
Staubus, Sarah., 171 
Stauffer, Katharine, 165 
Stebbins, Horatio, 41 
Stebbins, Lucy, 2, 5, 12, 19, 29, 31, 41-46, 53, 55, 58, 62, 64, 67, 68, 70, 

74, 81, 82, 86, 91, 92, 182, 183, 209; Portrait, 218, 235 
Stephens, Eenry Morse, 55 
Stern, Mrs. Sigmund, 53 
Stewart, George, 118 
Stewart, Ruth., 27 
Stumpf, Martha, 165 
Sturgess, Sara Huntsman, 48, 62 


Tabor, Alice, 3, 4, 30, 55, 107 

Tatlock, J.S.P., 106 

Thal-Larsen, Margaret, 10, 173, 198, 210 

Thomas, Jerome F. , 234 

Tokunaga, Chiyoko, 97 

Towle, ^Catherine, 57, 73, 78, 108 

Travers, Pauline, 66, 93 

Twist, Vera May, 180 

University of California, Berkeley 
Academic Senate, 167 

Academic women, 76, 103-115, 120, 151-157, 192-195 
Accounting Department, 23-25 

Building and Campus Development Committee, 225 
Cowell Hospital, 56, 91, 102 
Dean of Women's Office, 7, 43, 78, 82 

Astronomy, 151-153 

Economics, 42, 77, 164 

Education, 10, 46-48 

English, 103-105, 111-114, 118, 120 

Household Art, 4, 5, 44 

Household Science, 4, 5, 69 

Mathematics, 151, 152, 155, 164 

Music, 58, 61 

Nutrition, 4, 5, 82, 109 

Physical Education, 48, 49, 77, 100, 101, 116, 151 

Political Science, 176, 205, 206, 208-211 

Statistics, Statistical Lab, 152, 156, 164 
Faculty Clubs. See Faculty Club; Women's Faculty Club 
Library, 83 

Regents, 4, 13, 159, 160, 184-186, 188, 201, 246 
Sather Tower Bells, 59, 66 
School of Libxarianship, 83, 85 
School of Public Health., 93 
Senior Men's Hall, 159, 186, 197 
University High School, 149, 150 
Women on campus, 25, 82, 180, 193, 194, 206, 207, 226. See University 

of California Academic women 

Women's Center, 91, 111-113, 146, 163-166, 191 

Uridge, Margaret, 7, 9, 17, 18, 115-121, 144-148, 161, 163, 165, 211, 213, 
217, 218, 227, 228, 231, 238 

Vail, Virginia, 127 

Van Horn, Eleanor; Interview, 204-224; 235, 236 

Varsity Restaurant, Berkeley, 181 


Walters, Chuck, 15, 115, 142-145 

Warnke, Fred, 246 

Weber, Julius, 59, 60 

Welcome, Jane, 190 

Wellington, Winfield Scott, 54, 55, 58 

Wheeler, Benjamin Ide, and Mrs., 53 

White, Doris, 18 

Wickson, Katherine R., 86 

Wightman, Clara, 189 

Wilkerson, Margaret, 172 

Wilier, Norma, 202, 210, 213, 214, 216, 218, 220 

Williams, Katherine Van Valer, 119-121, 123, 214, 216-219; Interview, 225-253 

Williams, Mary Floyd, 97, 98 

Wilson, Garff, 48 

Women's City Club, Berkeley, 30, 51 

Women's Faculty Club 

Ad Hoc Committee (1967-1971), 196-201 

Annual Dinner, 63, 91, 92, 191 

art show, 12, 190 

auditing, 2, 17, 132, 133, 141 

Board meetings, 118, 119, 166, 168, 171-174, 182-189, 195, 232-234, 238, 
239, 252, 253 

Building Committee, 4-7, 31, 183-187 

cat, Hepzibah, 86, 87 

Christmas parties, 60, 61, 203 

dinner club, 106, 107, 109 

family Table, 13, 14, 87, 93, 129, 137 

foreign scholars resident at, 19, 66, 93, 97-99, 220-224 

furnishings, 34-36, 185, 202, 211-220, 229, 230 

garden, 235, 243-248 

Joint Operations, 142-148. See Women's Faculty Club merger 

kitchen, 8, 18, 38, 73, 76, 131-133, 137-142, 202, 220, 221, 240-242, 251 

liquor allowed in, 12, 89, 90, 138, 139, 241, 242 

location, early surroundings, 58, 100-102 

Lunch and Learn, 66, 74, 203 

lunch groups, academic, 121, 122, 154, 168, 171, 172, 176, 192, 193 

managers. See Abbo, Gaston; Barnes, Patricia; Curtis, Florence; 

James, Dulcie; Ransom, Muriel; Radcliffe, Caroline; Rockwell, Maxine 

membership, 33, 34, 49, 51, 52, 71, 155, 174, 175, 181, 182, 219, 
226, 236, 237 

merger, with The Faculty Club, 8, 11, 13-21, 39, 115-118, 142-148, 
160-169, 188, 189, 196-201, 211, 212, 228, 229 

mortgage, 55, 160, 184 

nuns resident at, 94, 95 

office, 38, 126-148 

parties, 60-63 

pianos, 61, 96 

Professional Advancement Committee, 19, 192 


Dmen's Faculty Club, cont. 

residence at, 13, 36, 37, 66, 74, 85-99, 157, 215, 216, 220-224 

residence, length of, 36, 110, 111, 195 

rugs, 15, 18, 142, 147 

treasures of, 16, 38, 53, 54, 215 

world wars, 57, 65 
Dods, Mrs. Baldwin, 6 


The Women's Faculty Club of the University of California, 

Berkeley, 1919-1982 

Page Number 




18th from top 

"Lucille" should be "Lucile" 


15th from top 

"Helena" should be "Helene" 


7th from bottom 

"Lucille" should be "Lucile" 


18th from top 

"Lucille Czarnovski" should be "Lucile 


4th from top 

"JMM" should be "MM" 


6th from top 

"Ranson" should be "Ransom" 















19th from top 
14th from top 
18th from top 
21st from top 
23rd from top 
19th from top 
12th from bottom 
14th from top 
18th from bottom 
10th from bottom 
9th from bottom 
1st from bottom 
10th from bottom 

llth from top 
10th from bottom 

18th from top 

"controller's" should be "comptroller's" 
"Lucille" should be "Lucile" 
"tools" should be "schools" 
"Lucille" should be "Lucile" 
"Kurt" should be "Curt" 
"Mois" should be "Mols" 
"peacefull" should be "peaceful" 
"Big Chill" should be "Big C hill" 
"Pheobe" should be "Phoebe" 
"What that" should be "Was that" 
"principle" should be "principal" 
"controller" should be "comptroller" 
"controller's" should be "comptroller's" 

"Controller's" should be "Comptroller's" 

Suzanne Bassett Riess 

Grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. 
Graduated from Goucher College, B.A. in 
English, 1957. 

Post-graduate work, University of London 
and the University of California, Berkeley, 
in English and history of art. 

Feature writing and assistant woman's page 
editor, Globe-Times, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 
Free-lance writing and editing in Berkeley. 
Volunteer work on starting a new Berkeley 
newspaper . 
Natural science decent at the Oakland Museum. 

Editor in the Regional Oral History Office 
since I960, interviewing in the fields of 
art, cultural history, environmental design, 
photography, Berkeley and University history. 

r \ 

"Remarks to the Women's Faculty Club on the 

Occasion of its Sixtieth Anniversary and the 
First Oral Histories," by Norma Wilier.